VIA Rail

[swimmer_spe]

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...nton-rail-line

A proposal to connect Calgary and Edmonton that doesn't demand it be HSR.

[ue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...nton-rail-line

A proposal to connect Calgary and Edmonton that doesn't demand it be HSR.

Something like this is such a no-brainer. It's really a shame that rail service hasn't existed between Edmonton and Calgary since 1985, and there would no doubt be demand for such a service. This would still be competitive with driving, as they note that an express train could get between the two major cities in 2 hours. Much cheaper than HSR and reintroduces the idea of intercity rail travel to Albertans, which could later be upgraded to HSR.

[acottawa]

This has all of the hallmarks of a rail charlatan, which we see from time to time, crazy low projected fares (basically bus fare), very low infrastructure costs and very high average speed (basically the top speed of a conventional train for the entire trip) and private sector financing.

[Truenorth00]

$2.2B doesn't seem like lowballing it. Not sure about the rest of the business case or their very optimistic timeline.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by acottawa

This has all of the hallmarks of a rail charlatan, which we see from time to time, crazy low projected fares (basically bus fare), very low infrastructure costs and very high average speed (basically the top speed of a conventional train for the entire trip) and private sector financing.

If it were Via running it, it would be no different than saying that about Corridor service.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

If it were Via running it, it would be no different than saying that about Corridor service.

Tickets for a 300km trip in the corridor cost considerably more than $4.
Average speeds in the corridor are nowhere near the top speed of conventional trains.
The corridor doesn’t attract private investors.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

$2.2B doesn't seem like lowballing it. Not sure about the rest of the business case or their very optimistic timeline.

That’s what people said about the early HFR estimates. I don’t know the condition of that track, but if it needs any grade separation, flooding mitigation, etc.

Just look at Via’s last (modest) infrastructure investments in 2007 and 2009 cost, or what Metrolinx spends on projects that are not particularly ambitious.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Tickets for a 300km trip in the corridor cost considerably more than $4.
Average speeds in the corridor are nowhere near the top speed of conventional trains.
The corridor doesn’t attract private investors.

I read the article and did not see a $4 price. If that is the goal, you are right, that is lofty. $40 makes sense.

As far as speed, I was thinking average speed of around 100km/hr, but able to reach 140 km/hr for parts of the route, which is much like the Corridor. My only concern would be condition of the track.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by acottawa

That’s what people said about the early HFR estimates. I don’t know the condition of that track, but if it needs any grade separation, flooding mitigation, etc.

Just look at Via’s last (modest) infrastructure investments in 2007 and 2009 cost, or what Metrolinx spends on projects that are not particularly ambitious.

The track is in good condition but it is the crossings and non-existent grade separations that is the problem with respect to speed. It was the grade crossing accidents that resulted in the previous cancellation of Via's dayliner service. There's only CTC from Alyth yard 16.6 mi north to Airdrie. After that the remaining 158 miles is covered by Occupancy Control System dispatching. This would need to be replaced with CTC if there is frequent passenger rail service There are no areas subject to flooding except where the tracks cross the Bow River coming into Calgary. I don't believe that during the floods in 2013 that the bridge was out of service unlike the the mainline entering and leaving Alyth yard.

I don't believe that the proponents expect to provide service without some form of subsidy, either provincial and/or federal. This is what makes parts of this proposal somewhat unlikely.

The main problem with the proposal is the long term plan to link Grande Prairie and Fort McMurray with Edmonton. The plan to link Medicine Hat via Lethbridge to Calgary makes more sense as it also goes through a couple of larger towns such as Okotoks and Claresholm than the northern extensions.

See the link to Alberta Regional Rail: https://www.albertaregionalrail.com

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

The track is in good condition but it is the crossings and non-existent grade separations that is the problem with respect to speed. It was the grade crossing accidents that resulted in the previous cancellation of Via's dayliner service. There's only CTC from Alyth yard 16.6 mi north to Airdrie. After that the remaining 158 miles is covered by Occupancy Control System dispatching. This would need to be replaced with CTC if there is frequent passenger rail service There are no areas subject to flooding except where the tracks cross the Bow River coming into Calgary. I don't believe that during the floods in 2013 that the bridge was out of service unlike the the mainline entering and leaving Alyth yard.

I don't believe that the proponents expect to provide service without some form of subsidy, either provincial and/or federal. This is what makes parts of this proposal somewhat unlikely.

The main problem with the proposal is the long term plan to link Grande Prairie and Fort McMurray with Edmonton. The plan to link Medicine Hat via Lethbridge to Calgary makes more sense as it also goes through a couple of larger towns such as Okotoks and Claresholm than the northern extensions.

See the link to Alberta Regional Rail: https://www.albertaregionalrail.com

Parts of GO Train was run by Bombardier, wasn't it? In fact, parts of Greater Vancouver's transit is also operated by private companies. It wouldn't be a stretch that this group runs the trains that are subsidized by the governments.

[casper]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Parts of GO Train was run by Bombardier, wasn't it? In fact, parts of Greater Vancouver's transit is also operated by private companies. It wouldn't be a stretch that this group runs the trains that are subsidized by the governments.

In the case of Vancouver, the Canada Line is a PPP where SNC lead the team the built and operates the line.

The WestCoast Express commuter rail is owned by WestCoast Express which is owned by Translink. However Bombardier had the contract to operate the trains and Via rail the contract to do maintenance.

The other railway service that falls into the camp is Cascadia. It is operated by Amtrak but the service is owned by the transportation departments of Washington state and Oregon state.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by casper

In the case of Vancouver, the Canada Line is a PPP where SNC lead the team the built and operates the line.

The WestCoast Express commuter rail is owned by WestCoast Express which is owned by Translink. However Bombardier had the contract to operate the trains and Via rail the contract to do maintenance.

The other railway service that falls into the camp is Cascadia. It is operated by Amtrak but the service is owned by the transportation departments of Washington state and Oregon state.

In other words, there is history of it happening. For me, that is good enough to sit back and watch and see what happens.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I read the article and did not see a $4 price. If that is the goal, you are right, that is lofty. $40 makes sense.

As far as speed, I was thinking average speed of around 100km/hr, but able to reach 140 km/hr for parts of the route, which is much like the Corridor. My only concern would be condition of the track.

Unless I am mistaken, they are promising 2 hour express trains, which would require a 150 kph average speed.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Tickets for a 300km trip in the corridor cost considerably more than $4.
[...]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I read the article and did not see a $4 price. If that is the goal, you are right, that is lofty. $40 makes sense.

This is what the article says:

Fryer said the aim is to make it as affordable and convenient as possible. Right now they are kicking around the idea of $4-a-station price point while utilizing rail and stations near town centres.

Admittedly a strange pricing model, as a passenger's willingness-to-pay is hardly proportional to the number of en-route stops which (if anything) only prolong his trip...

[MonctonRad]

I would demand an express train!!!

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

Admittedly a strange pricing model, as a passenger's willingness-to-pay is hardly proportional to the number of en-route stops which (if anything) only prolong his trip...

I read that as a rough “fare by distance” formula. So if there are 8 local stops between Calgary and Red Deer, then the cost of riding from Red Deer to Calgary on a non-stop is $32. Seems about right price-wise.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Unless I am mistaken, they are promising 2 hour express trains, which would require a 150 kph average speed.

Can you quote that? I have not sen actual speeds being promoted.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Can you quote that? I have not sen actual speeds being promoted.

So much for "I read the article":

This new proposal would stop at just about every community along the way, including First Nations like Maskwacis. Meanwhile, the express train would take about two hours to get from Calgary to Edmonton.

[David1gray]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

The track is in good condition but it is the crossings and non-existent grade separations that is the problem with respect to speed. It was the grade crossing accidents that resulted in the previous cancellation of Via's dayliner service. There's only CTC from Alyth yard 16.6 mi north to Airdrie. After that the remaining 158 miles is covered by Occupancy Control System dispatching. This would need to be replaced with CTC if there is frequent passenger rail service

CTC now extends to Red Deer. Airdrie to Netook was completed just over a year ago, and the remainder came online in late 2021.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by David1gray

CTC now extends to Red Deer. Airdrie to Netook was completed just over a year ago, and the remainder came online in late 2021.

Good to know.I was using the 2021 Bytown Railway Canadian Trackside Guide for my source of information. Hopefully CP will extend CTC to South Edmonton in the near future.