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  #1  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2021, 4:45 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
That is a bit of a cliche for sure. But I wonder how much of that is a product of reporters attuned to sniffing out these kinds of issues with publicly funded stadiums where you can submit access to information requests for details?
It's a good point to make but sometimes the issues are impossible to hide, like speakers falling at THF or the roof collapsing at BC Place.

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You seldom hear about these kinds of issues with privately-owned or operated NHL arenas... are they just better at managing construction or can they simply keep this hidden out of the public eye given that it is usually a private affair?
Think there's definitely a better ability to manage construction. Still, these sorts of things happen; Rogers Place in Edmonton suffered water damage from leaks during a heavy rainfall in 2020. You're right, though, in that these arenas have tenants capable of footing more of the bill on their own and thus are under less public books and scrutiny.

I'm pretty sure i've seen water leaking from the North Stands above during 67s games in the past few years during rainfalls.

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I also wonder what kinds of issues there might have been in the late 70s/early 80s heyday of Canadian stadium expansion and construction that the press simply never pried into. For instance, I remember reading about shenanigans at the Big O construction site where trucks would supposedly come with loads of building materials, drive through without dumping, then come back again with another "delivery", etc.
Surely Olympic is the poster child for stadiums that had absolutely everything go wrong with them.
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  #2  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2021, 4:48 PM
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
I guess you don't have a new stadium in Canada unless it's filled with lawsuits, unpaid bills, and immediate deficiencies.
Olympic Stadium and SkyDome's legacy lives on.

Governments are so loath to be seen as spending excessive money that they do the cheap-out thing, or offer very rigid fixed-price contracts. This is in contrast to those stadiums' relatively free-spending, but politically costly budgets.

Some of this is transparency at work too, as the squabbles over money end up in court.
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  #3  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2021, 8:52 PM
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Ah yes, the wooden veil so nice it bankrupted the company that designed and made it.

https://ottawacitizen.com/business/l...re-and-layoffs
The conclusion isn't that we shouldn't build nice things. It's a commentary on how projects are managed. Hopefully when they rebuild the north stands, these issues will have been resolved. If they aren't, they'll end up repeating what happened with the south stands. Another bankruptcy, people going unpaid, etc. I suppose we'll end up with yet another stadium where one stand doesn't match the other stand. Tim Hortons Field? BMO Field? Molson Stadium?

The south stand replicated on the north side would be ideal.
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Last edited by isaidso; Jul 8, 2021 at 9:05 PM.
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  #4  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2021, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
The conclusion isn't that we shouldn't build nice things. It's a commentary on how projects are managed. Hopefully when they rebuild the north stands, these issues will have been resolved. If they aren't, they'll end up repeating what happened with the south stands. Another bankruptcy, people going unpaid, etc. I suppose we'll end up with yet another stadium where one stand doesn't match the other stand. Tim Hortons Field? BMO Field? Molson Stadium?

The south stand replicated on the north side would be ideal.
I don't understand the fixation on having exactly the same design when built in multiple phases. Older European soccer stadiums were all built at different times, with different designs, and no one bats an eye at it.
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  #5  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2021, 10:27 PM
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Replicating the south on the north probably precludes the arena. Which is fine if there is another cost-effective option for an arena elsewhere. But if the mayor wants to increase the population around there to help pay for it, an arena is probably a better draw than a football stadium, so I imagine the arena needs to be part of it.
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  #6  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2021, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
I suppose we'll end up with yet another stadium where one stand doesn't match the other stand. Tim Hortons Field? BMO Field? Molson Stadium?

The south stand replicated on the north side would be ideal.
I don't see the big deal. Yeah, the structures may be different between the two sets of grandstands, but so what? In Molson's case, it's a very old stadium, so of course the modern addition makes for a big mismatch. BMO was expanded over time, but the seating is consistent (type, colour) so it doesn't feel like the two sides are that disconnected. Same with THF... I'd have preferred if they at least "roughed in" some club levels on the east grandstand, but the budget just wasn't there, and you'd still have a press box on one side or the other.

Incongruity seems to be fairly common with many of the latest stadium designs in many places. Look at some of the big NFL stadiums of the past 20 years.
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  #7  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2021, 3:32 PM
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^ That would have been the logical thing to do, yes. Canada does tend to be super-frugal when it comes to stadiums, though, so at least it was keeping with the national character with this sort of stuff.

Even the new grandstand that Ottawa did build is somewhat on the underwhelming side, although I will give them credit for some nice and attractive design touches.
I don't think I've ever heard "half-assed" described in such a nice way!
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  #8  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2021, 4:41 PM
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I don't think I've ever heard "half-assed" described in such a nice way!
It literally was half-done, so 'half assed' indeed.
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  #9  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2021, 5:26 PM
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Correct me if I am wrong, but I have the impression that for government funded infrastructure or buildings/ stadiums, when the project goes out for bid, I believe that governments are almost handcuffed to go with the lowest practical bid, for reasons like using tax payer dollars to fund these projects, or avoid the impression of favouritism to contractors that have higher bids… utilizing the lowest bids may typically result in half assed, unfinished products
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  #10  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2021, 5:37 PM
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Correct me if I am wrong, but I have the impression that for government funded infrastructure or buildings/ stadiums, when the project goes out for bid, I believe that governments are almost handcuffed to go with the lowest practical bid, for reasons like using tax payer dollars to fund these projects, or avoid the impression of favouritism to contractors that have higher bids… utilizing the lowest bids may typically result in half assed, unfinished products
I think some allowance can be made for a materially better bid, but yes, generally low price is easier to sell politically.

I have a nagging suspicion construction companies know this and underbid, hoping to wrangle additional money when things don't go to plan.
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  #11  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2021, 4:39 PM
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Going through some of my father’s papers over the weekend.

A concept for a covered stadium in Edmonton put forward in about 1967 but the concept started in 1957, probably over drinks one evening. My father did the original drafting and you can see it in some of the ghost images.
Here is some of the original concept drawings.
[IMG]Dad scan 2 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/[/url], on Flickr[/IMG]
[IMG]Dad scan 1 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/[/url], on Flickr[/IMG]
[IMG]scan0751024_1 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/[/url], on Flickr[/IMG] in the attached article
[IMG]0001 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/[/url], on Flickr[/IMG].

We know there was some drawings of the Omniplex concept as well. But those have gone missing.

But what could have been.
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  #12  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2021, 5:30 PM
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Going through some of my father’s papers over the weekend.
Amazing stuff! Edmonton has always aimed pretty high with its sports venues.
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  #13  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2021, 3:41 AM
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We know there was some drawings of the Omniplex concept as well. But those have gone missing. But what could have been.


Retrofutures: Edmonton’s Omniplex – Part 1
Retrofutures: Edmonton’s Omniplex – Part 2
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  #14  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2021, 8:29 PM
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Originally Posted by thewave46 View Post
I think some allowance can be made for a materially better bid, but yes, generally low price is easier to sell politically.

I have a nagging suspicion construction companies know this and underbid, hoping to wrangle additional money when things don't go to plan.
Trillium Stage 2 is a good example. The City went with the cheapest bidder despite the fact that they failed the technical requirements twice, far behind the top two bids. They didn't include basic stuff like signaling or train control systems, no plan for snow removal or revamping the existing trains, some stations were non-compliant (ramps instead of stairs and elevators). They apparently fixed the deficiencies in their bid after being awarded the contract, yet the price remains the same somehow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
The conclusion isn't that we shouldn't build nice things. It's a commentary on how projects are managed. Hopefully when they rebuild the north stands, these issues will have been resolved. If they aren't, they'll end up repeating what happened with the south stands. Another bankruptcy, people going unpaid, etc. I suppose we'll end up with yet another stadium where one stand doesn't match the other stand. Tim Hortons Field? BMO Field? Molson Stadium?

The south stand replicated on the north side would be ideal.
Because the new north side stands will be integrated with the arena and new mixed-use development, replicating the south side won't be possible.
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  #15  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2021, 7:17 PM
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^ That is some peak 60s stadium architecture right there. But something that bold and audacious probably wouldn't have aged that well. I suspect Edmonton was better off going with Commonwealth Stadium... a relatively economical and efficient design that has stood the test of time.

Incidentally, when I visited Rice Stadium in Houston a few years back (pre-renovations) I was amazed by how much it resembled Commonwealth in terms of layout and configuration. Does anyone know if the architects deliberately set out to closely follow Rice?
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  #16  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2021, 7:26 PM
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Incidentally, when I visited Rice Stadium in Houston a few years back (pre-renovations) I was amazed by how much it resembled Commonwealth in terms of layout and configuration. Does anyone know if the architects deliberately set out to closely follow Rice?
I believe Kansas City's Arrowhead Stadium was the inspiration, they also considered a dome IIRC.

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  #17  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2021, 7:31 PM
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I believe Kansas City's Arrowhead Stadium was the inspiration, they also considered a dome IIRC.
Very close similarities to Arrowhead for sure. Commonwealth is basically what you'd get if you tried to build an Arrowhead lookalike but shaped to a Rice configuration.
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  #18  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2021, 7:41 PM
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Wikipedia says Commonwealth was based on Jack Trice Stadium (or Cyclone Stadium) in Ames Iowa, (Iowa State University). I am still looking for the place where I read Arrowhead was the inspiration, I am quite sure I have.

Commonwealth Stadium
City of Edmonton

In the early 1970s, a group of Edmonton sports enthusiasts organized a bid to host the 1978 Commonwealth Games. The group quickly secured significant federal, provincial and city support for the bid. The financial backing given to the bid committee was an important factor in Edmonton being granted the games, and key component of this support was a proposal to build or renovate a range of venues as a sports legacy for Edmonton.

Initially, there was some thought given to rebuilding Clarke Stadium to make it large enough to host the main track and field, and other sports events for the games. However, by late 1974, there was substantial agreement that a new larger stadium was the best option. There were some debates over the form that stadium might take and discussions around possible locations, but by January 1975, Edmonton City Council had settled on construction of a huge, over 40,000 person capacity, stadium adjacent to the old Clarke Stadium.

Construction of the new Commonwealth Stadium was a massive undertaking. This photograph, taken in August 1976 shows work on the excavations for the field level and the start of work on the recreation centre and field house at the south end of the stadium. In addition, Council approved construction of the Kinsmen Aquatic Centre for swimming and diving events, and the Argyll Velodrome for cycling, while badminton, wrestling and some other sports would be staged using University of Alberta sports facilities.

Despite considerable opposition from residents and community groups in the new stadium area, construction began on the new facility in March. Edmontonians were regularly informed by the news media about the scale, and cost, of the project. Construction required removal of 500,000 cubic yards of dirt for the stadium infield. This excavation work required 40 trucks, eight earth movers, backhoes, excavators, and other heavy equipment.

The construction was not without problems. There was a lot of interest in an extra bill of $50,000 for a special Royal Retirement Room adjacent to the Royal Box, and some questions were asked about the training and office space allocated to the Eskimos. There was even a long and often heated debate about whether or not the stadium needed a roof or dome to make it impervious to the elements. The projected cost of $18.2 million (or more) for the roof limited public support for this idea. By early 1978, these issues seemed resolved, though there was some concern expressed by a few athletes about footing on the Pro Turf surface used for the track, and for some field events such as javelin and high jump. Otherwise, the stadium and other facilities were finished in good time, more or less on budget, and with minimal controversy.
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  #19  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2021, 7:49 PM
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^ I don't see a clear resemblance to the stadium in Iowa. It's much closer to Rice/Arrowhead.
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  #20  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2021, 7:54 PM
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^ I don't see a clear resemblance to the stadium in Iowa. It's much closer to Rice/Arrowhead.
I agree.

Blast from the past, a post of mine from three years ago.

Commonwealth Stadium (In the Beginning)



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I love the old commercials, anyone remember the girl who became famous for the "You Got It Pontiac" (46:34) commercials. Apparently some people still use it as a catchprase. TPB?

Everybody stole Georgio Moroder's instrumental "Chase" from the movie Midnight Express back then (126:08)
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