Tucson Development Thread

[farmerk]

Happy 201st page!! Heee!!! HAAAA!!!

My opinion about the 4th Ave. shopping district is keep it as it is - electic except just clean and fix the place up. It's looking better now that the 4th ave. st has a brand new road thanks to the streetcar.

As for adding brand name stores/restaurants downtown and along west university, I'm all for it. The more variety the better. There are times when I want to take time eating in a restaurant so I go to the local restaurants. However, there are times when I want my meal cheap and quick - Subway. Groceries? Bring in Trader Joe's , Sprouts, Urban Target. If there's a local grocery store that Tucsonans actually go to ... go for it.

There are neighborhoods in Tucson that aren't worth designating a historical neighborhood. One of them is West Univerisity. Just because you have a handful of historical looking houses in a neighborhood doesn't make the rest of the neighborhood historical. West University has ugly old apts. And, I could guess, most of the people living there are students. My view, that the reason why owners of those rundown historical houses are so against new developments at or around West University is that they don't want to loose their customers, students, to those nice 21st century buildings. So I'm all for tearing down most of the West University 'historical' houses in place of 5+ story Paris-like buildings. Keep Linda Ronstadt's house for tourism purposes.

Sam Hughes Neighborhood, Armory Park and those nice barrios with tall adobe houses - KEEP IT. The neighborhood south of the UofA (6th ave/Broadway/Euclid/Campbell) - tear most of it down and turn it into a 'Paris'. In fact, I have a long list of neighborhoods I want tear down - one them is Rita Ranch ... sorry RRancher, might want to change your username to Sam Hughes.

There aren't too many cities in the U.S of A that's Paris-like. San Francisco is the only Paris-like city that I know. So if we transform Tucson into a southwest themed Paris (makes it unique), Tucson would flourish from a run-down city that looks like it's been used as a testing site for the A-bomb (or maybe the H-bomb) to a top tier city in the world! Please don't do this ->

[bleunick]

A crucial part of planning for the future in any city is preserving your assets. West University IS an asset. Those homes represent a unique period of growth and architectural style in Tucson's history, and to demo them to slap a 4 story apartment complex in their place is absurd.

I agree with you Farmerk about the "ugly old apts" however those are not contributing structures in the historic district, and should be viewed as an example as to what happens when you knock down old homes and try to build something modern in its place. Whose to say yours and RitaRanchers similar idea wont end with the same result 20-30 years down the road? Im not sure where the "rundown" homes are in west university either... I would personally love to own a 1920s bungalow with a REAL yard and a REAL living space.

Im all for density and adding population to the area, its just unfortunate that WU is located where it is. There is plenty of prime empty lots surrounding 4th ave (especially to the west) that would be perfect for high density 10+ story residential. I can tell you that this is where a lot of developers are focusing their attention at the moment, due to the incentives in place because of the Downtown Gateway Redevelopment Area.

[southtucsonboy77]

Originally Posted by bleunick

A crucial part of planning for the future in any city is preserving your assets. West University IS an asset. Those homes represent a unique period of growth and architectural style in Tucson's history, and to demo them to slap a 4 story apartment complex in their place is absurd.

I agree with you Farmerk about the "ugly old apts" however those are not contributing structures in the historic district, and should be viewed as an example as to what happens when you knock down old homes and try to build something modern in its place. Whose to say yours and RitaRanchers similar idea wont end with the same result 20-30 years down the road? Im not sure where the "rundown" homes are in west university either... I would personally love to own a 1920s bungalow with a REAL yard and a REAL living space.

Im all for density and adding population to the area, its just unfortunate that WU is located where it is. There is plenty of prime empty lots surrounding 4th ave (especially to the west) that would be perfect for high density 10+ story residential. I can tell you that this is where a lot of developers are focusing their attention at the moment, due to the incentives in place because of the Downtown Gateway Redevelopment Area.

I had this discussion with a fellow planner last year...what makes something, some place "historical"? My argument was that just because something is old, ,or given a title, it does not make it "historical" in the sense of significance, architecture, or value. If we use the "old" criteria, then the Mission Manor area off of Valencia and 12th Ave would be a historical neighborhood. Shoot, the whole City of South Tucson would be historical.

Decades ago, the City of Tucson really put a push on creating Neighborhood Associations and "historical" neighborhood designations to protect areas from what had happen to the Barrio when New Urbanism was the trend and the glorious and precious TCC came to be. But now, in my opinion, they really need to go back and evaluate if certain neighborhoods are maintaining the integrity of the "historical" designation. West University, as it is today, is probably toeing that line...and is trending towards not being truly "historical" if some official really put that area to the test. I feel there is enough there to keep it "historical"...and they need to get their act together and clean it up. Overall, though, in my opinion, more damage has been done with the post-policies of neighborhood associations and historical designations in the sense of economic development. Protect neighborhoods, but be reasonable.

[Ted Lyons]

Originally Posted by bleunick

A crucial part of planning for the future in any city is preserving your assets. West University IS an asset. Those homes represent a unique period of growth and architectural style in Tucson's history, and to demo them to slap a 4 story apartment complex in their place is absurd.

Exactly. Unfortunately, you're talking to someone (Ritarancher) who advocated for building big box stores downtown. His ideas of urbanism often conflict with each other and more accurately reflect suburban growth.

Im not sure where the "rundown" homes are in west university either... I would personally love to own a 1920s bungalow with a REAL yard and a REAL living space.

I think the "rundown" comment stems from having driven down 6th Street once or twice. Criticizing the upkeep of one of the most expensive neighborhoods in the city is patently ridiculous. There are some yards with weeds in Sam Hughes, too, but that doesn't detract from the neighborhood as a whole.

[farmerk]

southtucsonboy77, I agree with every point you made.

bleunick, I should've been more specific about my proposal with regards to destroying West University. I would love to Search, Destroy and Replace about 60-70 percent of West University because the owners of those 'historic' houses and apts haven't kept up with their property. Why listen to a drug dealer who preaches drugs are bad for you? Besides, the city should've learned by now that in order for Tucson to progress from 3rd world status, it needs to plan what's good for the city instead of listening to a handful of Neighborhood Associations or as I call it, Delusional Autocratic and Dangerous Associations (DADA). Of course, there are still a lot of places around Tucson to build those tall buildings and you just can't force an owner of a house to move out. The point I'm trying to make here with West University, we'll listen to you if you fix your neighborhood. If someone would proposed building a 10+ floor building in the middle of Sam Hughes, I'd be against it. The buildings/houses that were replaced by the Hub,Park Ave etc... are worth replacing ... they looked rundown.

There are nice houses and buildings at West University such Linda's house or even that former Baptist Church (Roman/Greek Classic design) across her house. There's the Historic Y building. Those folks (who own the rundown houses/apts) need to fixed their place ... it might even devalue the whole neighborhood.

I think the city has a program (tax incentives?) to help those 'historic' neighborhoods fix their houses.

I'd like to make a comment about the current adobe neighborhoods. They are a tourist attraction. Whenever I walked in those neighborhoods, you'd see people talking photos. It also feels like you are walking in a living museum and yes, feels urban because the houses are close to the streets with small sidewalks plus they're about 12+ feet taller.

[southtucsonboy77]

An example of "Neighborhood Associations Gone Bad" is the proposed 5-story development on the southwest corner of Speedway/Stone, across the street from PCC. Do any of you remember that? The NA in that area shot down the initial proposal, the developers tried to compromise on their concerns, but then the end result was that the NA could not live adjacent to a 5-story "skyscraper" that would...drum roll...bring too much traffic to the neighborhood and block mountain views. So what has been sitting there now for nearly the last 10 years? A vacant lot with weeds and glistening shattered bottle glass. That's a lovely view alright. Property values are probably still low and there has been ZERO, ZIP econ development there ever since.

[ProfessorMole]

In some actual development news, two crews are working today to finish the electrical for the new light at second and park and installing a new light at University and Park. The Tyndall Ave stop has it's shade up, but half the platform hasn't been poured. Level is continuing to finish with about 5 full floors that have windows and about three that have the sliding glass doors for the balconies. Hub worksite picked up even more today than it was yesterday. About 3 times more people around the site.

Side note, The post office that was in Main Gate Square closed on April 1st. There is a liquor license in the window of the old La Salsa and the Fat Greek that was down for remodeling for water damage has a liquor license back up too.

[Ted Lyons]

Originally Posted by ProfessorMole

In some actual development news, two crews are working today to finish the electrical for the new light at second and park and installing a new light at University and Park. The Tyndall Ave stop has it's shade up, but half the platform hasn't been poured. Level is continuing to finish with about 5 full floors that have windows and about three that have the sliding glass doors for the balconies. Hub worksite picked up even more today than it was yesterday. About 3 times more people around the site.

Side note, The post office that was in Main Gate Square closed on April 1st. There is a liquor license in the window of the old La Salsa and the Fat Greek that was down for remodeling for water damage has a liquor license back up too.

Nice post.

I didn't know University and Park was getting a light. That's actually great news as is the light at University and 4th. Both of those intersections were horrible for people screwing up the 4-way stop cycle.

I looked up the liquor license register and guess what's going in the La Salsa location. Wait for it . . . a CVS. This seems like something that would be better suited for the ground floor of one of the new apartment buildings.

EDIT - As I kind of expected, based on the fact that the post office was closing as well, CVS is taking over the entire building. So, that means no more Johnny Rockets either.

http://www.tucsonaz.gov/SIREPub/cach...3014915884.pdf

[Patrick S]

Originally Posted by ProfessorMole

In some actual development news, two crews are working today to finish the electrical for the new light at second and park and installing a new light at University and Park. The Tyndall Ave stop has it's shade up, but half the platform hasn't been poured. Level is continuing to finish with about 5 full floors that have windows and about three that have the sliding glass doors for the balconies. Hub worksite picked up even more today than it was yesterday. About 3 times more people around the site.

Side note, The post office that was in Main Gate Square closed on April 1st. There is a liquor license in the window of the old La Salsa and the Fat Greek that was down for remodeling for water damage has a liquor license back up too.

Thank you Prof. for getting us back onto topic. Seriously people - it's bad enough we were fighting with the Phoenix folks, but then we started arguing amongst ourselves. I'm sure each and every one of us has a different idea or approach we think should be taken to redevelop Tucson, but we need to not snipe at each other. We're all on the same side here and want the same thing at the end of the day - a better Tucson.

I was going to say that I was surprised the Post Office was closing down there at the Main Gate Square. With all the new housing opening up right by there you would think a Post Office would be busier than ever at that spot. But, we quickly found out that a CVS is opening there (BTW - good find Ted Lyons). This is unfortunate, but I'm sure it will be pretty busy too. I agree with Ted that this would be good for the ground floor of one of the housing buildings. Maybe they'll move the Post Offices to one of them. I don't live by there so I don't know where a closer Post Office is, but I do know there is one in the Student Union.

[farmerk]

Prof Mole and Ted, thanks for that update. I'm glad there's a CVS at that area. I remember there was a local pharmacy/convenience store at the corner of Park and University Blvd few years back. As for the Post Office shutting down, I'm not surprised. The USPS has been shutting down branches all over the country. They even shutdown the main processing center for Tucson at Cherrybell-Stravenue. There's also a PO at Speedway close to Aloft and 6th ave/Broadway downtown.

I hope for a CVS or some other pharmacy/small grocer downtown. I miss the former Walgreens downtown location.

Well, Patrick, I agree ... we just need to reset and continue. There was a 'bitched slap' moment. We just need to get together and destroy all of Tucson's neighborhood associations (DADA) - just kidding.

EDIT: @bluenick, let me just say, I like your avatar - that would make a good official hat for Tucson.

[Ted Lyons]

Originally Posted by Patrick S

This is unfortunate, but I'm sure it will be pretty busy too. I agree with Ted that this would be good for the ground floor of one of the housing buildings. Maybe they'll move the Post Offices to one of them. I don't live by there so I don't know where a closer Post Office is, but I do know there is one in the Student Union.

In terms of the post office closing, it's not a huge loss. There's the location in the Student Union, the Sun Station on Speedway between Campbell and Tucson, and various private shipping places all around campus, including University Postal, Letter Box, the FedEx Office at Speedway and Tucson, and the UPS Store at Campbell and Broadway.

My initial concern was that the CVS would be a waste of valuable street frontage but I'm kind of rethinking that. I still believe a location in one of the new buildings would be ideal but all walkable urban environments need stores like CVS. I've brought up the need for a CVS/Walgreens downtown with people on multiple occasions as there is no store in the area that sells staple goods and, to an extent, the same is true of the university area.

There are grocery stores somewhat nearby, but not close enough to visit without a vehicle. So, what this provides is the general ability to live in one of the new apartment buildings and buy most of what you need on a daily basis without driving anywhere. That's a big plus for the neighborhood and I don't want to criticize a first mover for taking advantage of that.

[southtucsonboy77]

Originally Posted by farmerk

Prof Mole and Ted, thanks for that update. I'm glad there's a CVS at that area. I remember there was a local pharmacy/convenience store at the corner of Park and University Blvd few years back. As for the Post Office shutting down, I'm not surprised. The USPS has been shutting down branches all over the country. They even shutdown the main processing center for Tucson at Cherrybell-Stravenue. There's also a PO at Speedway close to Aloft and 6th ave/Broadway downtown.

I hope for a CVS or some other pharmacy/small grocer downtown. I miss the former Walgreens downtown location.

Well, Patrick, I agree ... we just need to reset and continue. There was a 'bitched slap' moment. We just need to get together and destroy all of Tucson's neighborhood associations (DADA) - just kidding.

EDIT: @bluenick, let me just say, I like your avatar - that would make a good official hat for Tucson.

No big worries, I think we all like to vent a bit of frustration on past failed developments/policies, Phx, etc in between someone bringing forth development news. I wish I could share more news, but for the jurisdiction I currently work for, I would be risking my job. With that said, some of you AMAZE me on how quick you do deliver news.

I feel guilty now because I always ate at Johnny Rockets when it first came out. I've neglected that place for a few years now...and now there's a CVS. I'm not against the CVS, but I'm actually conflicted about whether that's the best use for that corner.

[ppdd]

I guess the CVS makes sense, and I've lamented the closing of the Walgreens downtown; however, I'd much rather have the restored Place building and the U of A presence than the Walgreens, so I guess it worked our for that particular property.

I'm still annoyed that the local and somewhat interesting complex at Broadway and Wilmot (El Charro, etc...) has been cleared our for demolition and construction of another CVS. I'm tired of a chain drugstore on every corner in the city.

[farmerk]

Originally Posted by southtucsonboy77

No big worries, I think we all like to vent a bit of frustration on past failed developments/policies, Phx, etc in between someone bringing forth development news. I wish I could share more news, but for the jurisdiction I currently work for, I would be risking my job. With that said, some of you AMAZE me on how quick you do deliver news.

I feel guilty now because I always ate at Johnny Rockets when it first came out. I've neglected that place for a few years now...and now there's a CVS. I'm not against the CVS, but I'm actually conflicted about whether that's the best use for that corner.

I'm in the same boat as you. Don't want to give too much info about myself and what I know otherwise I'd lose $$$.

I've been to Johnny R. once at that corner and not sure I'd miss it since there's a lot of 'Johnny Rockets' in the Old Pueblo. I wouldn't mind CVS at that corner although I wished it where located in those new mid-rise developments. Maybe someday, someone is going to convert that area to another 10+ floor building...I wouldn't be surprised.

My take with Tucson development, as soon as one of those 10+ floor buildings gets done and they get filled with stores/retails needed for daily amenities like CVS/Trade Joe's, the rest of Tucson will follow ... a domino effect. The more of those mixed used buildings get built, the more companies will set up shop in Tucson. I'm optimistic, this time.

[farmerk]

Originally Posted by ppdd

I guess the CVS makes sense, and I've lamented the closing of the Walgreens downtown; however, I'd much rather have the restored Place building and the U of A presence than the Walgreens, so I guess it worked our for that particular property.

I'm still annoyed that the local and somewhat interesting complex at Broadway and Wilmot (El Charro, etc...) has been cleared our for demolition and construction of another CVS. I'm tired of a chain drugstore on every corner in the city.

I understand your frustration. What bothers me most about CVS is their standard design of their cookie cutter building. RRancher posted a photo of a McDonald's in a Paris building a few pages back ... that setup is ok with me. I wished CVS would do the same.

[Schaeffa]

Originally Posted by Ted Lyons

Nice post.

I didn't know University and Park was getting a light. That's actually great news as is the light at University and 4th. Both of those intersections were horrible for people screwing up the 4-way stop cycle.

I looked up the liquor license register and guess what's going in the La Salsa location. Wait for it . . . a CVS. This seems like something that would be better suited for the ground floor of one of the new apartment buildings.

EDIT - As I kind of expected, based on the fact that the post office was closing as well, CVS is taking over the entire building. So, that means no more Johnny Rockets either.

http://www.tucsonaz.gov/SIREPub/cach...3014915884.pdf

Looking at the document you linked to, it looks like they're putting in a traffic light at Tyndall Ave. and University Blvd., too. With lights at Park and 2nd, Park and University, Tyndall and University, and Euclid and University, it seems like there'll be an awful lot of signals for the streetcar to hit as it makes its way through Main Gate. Hope it doesn't catch all of them red each time (like I undoubtedly will. =P )

[southtucsonboy77]

Not sure if this was discussed here last month, but this would be huge for Downtown...

http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/21430944/pcc-exploring-downtown-move

Pima Community College is looking into new facilities in the center of downtown.

The PCC Governing Board has unanimously voted to look for potential locations. PCC has six campuses, including one just north of downtown on Stone Avenue.

Board Chair Dr. Brenda B. Even says the customized workforce education programs at the Community Campus are at maximum capacity. She also says Tucson Mayor Jonathan Rothschild's Education Task Force as well as the Workforce Investment Board have requested that the college offer more workforce education opportunities.

[farmerk]

Originally Posted by southtucsonboy77

Not sure if this was discussed here last month, but this would be huge for Downtown...

http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/21430944/pcc-exploring-downtown-move

Pima Community College is looking into new facilities in the center of downtown.

The PCC Governing Board has unanimously voted to look for potential locations. PCC has six campuses, including one just north of downtown on Stone Avenue.

Board Chair Dr. Brenda B. Even says the customized workforce education programs at the Community Campus are at maximum capacity. She also says Tucson Mayor Jonathan Rothschild's Education Task Force as well as the Workforce Investment Board have requested that the college offer more workforce education opportunities.

If PCC and Grand Canyon University moves in downtown, it's safe to say we'll see more 10+ floor or even 20+ floor apts/condos in the near horizon. Another good use for the streetcar if you take classes at both UofA and PCC. Ah yes, good times here we come.

EDIT: I can understand all the traffic stops and slow speed the streetcar will experience since it will be in a dense route. A 50 mph streetcar would scare me walking across 4th ave.

[Anqrew]

Originally Posted by Schaeffa

Looking at the document you linked to, it looks like they're putting in a traffic light at Tyndall Ave. and University Blvd., too. With lights at Park and 2nd, Park and University, Tyndall and University, and Euclid and University, it seems like there'll be an awful lot of signals for the streetcar to hit as it makes its way through Main Gate. Hope it doesn't catch all of them red each time (like I undoubtedly will. =P )

im pretty sure lights will be programmed to always be green for the street cars. at least id think so. These intersections get too much traffic to have stop signs anymore IMO. whenever im at any of these spots its impossible to get through because the pedestrians just waltz right into the crosswalk and it never ends and the cars never get to go through. and dont get me started on the bikes running the stop signs...

[Ted Lyons]

Originally Posted by Anqrew

im pretty sure lights will be programmed to always be green for the street cars. at least id think so. These intersections get too much traffic to have stop signs anymore IMO. whenever im at any of these spots its impossible to get through because the pedestrians just waltz right into the crosswalk and it never ends and the cars never get to go through. and dont get me started on the bikes running the stop signs...

Exactly. The difference between street cars and light rail is not the light patterns but, rather, the presence of traffic. In an ideal environment, a street car would never hit a red light. In the real world, that's not possible given traffic speed. However, the lights will almost definitely be programmed to accomodate a regularized timing schedule.