Sports in Canadian culture

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Mister F

^Come on, Quebec isn't marginalized, it's very much the master of its own affairs within a pretty decentralized federation. Who cares if it's not as influential nationally as it once was? Bowing down? Really?
.

This response would apply to both you and esquire...

I'd say it isn't a big deal in theory, provided that the country's changing demographics aren't used to leverage against Quebec and francophones.

If you look at Switzerland, francophones are 17-18% of the population, which is quite a bit less than the percentage in Canada, and yet the majority Swiss German population does not use this demographic advantage in order to try and compel the francophones to become more like them, or undermine the francophone Swiss language and culture on its own turf.

I am not really sure how things will go in Canada, but the fact that I run into more and more people like mistercorporate (both on forums and in real life) does not reassure me in the slightest.

[tremblay]

Originally Posted by Mister F

^Come on, Quebec isn't marginalized, it's very much the master of its own affairs within a pretty decentralized federation. Who cares if it's not as influential nationally as it once was? Bowing down? Really?

It's a long-term trend. In 1840, Canada was 45% francophone; this went down to 28% in 1961 and it was 22.1% in 2006 (Histoire de deux nationalismes au Canada, Maurice Séguin). The proportion is expected to go gradually down to 18.4% in 2031 and 16% in 2056 (Termote). You reach a certain point when such a small minority becomes marginalized; not saying it's the case now, I'm just arguing this is inevitable givnig current demographics.

Even though only 16.5% of people form Quebec voted conservative in 2011, Canada -and Quebec- have been lead by a majority Conservatives since then. Accepting this fate is bowing down to me.

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't really understand this line of thinking.

You don't think have a distinctive unique scene is at least part of it?

It's the difference between being a car jockey for a rich guy who owns a half dozen luxury vehicles, and having just two luxury vehicles in your garage, but owning them youself.

Why should the car jockey look down on the other guy just because he's driving around his boss' cars that he himself doesn't even own?

Toronto built and owns two dozen BMW 5-series vehicles which he leases out to wealthy customers internationally who provide him the cashflow to invest in developing his car manufacturing know-how. Most of his cars are in neutral colours to maximize his marketshare.

Montreal built five Hyundai Accent's and owns and operates all of them except one he leases out to his buddy Quebec City. All of Montreal's cars are emblazoned with images of his face and he thinks his car leasing "conglomerate" is better and more important than Toronto...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Toronto built and owns two dozen BMW's which he leases out to wealthy customers internationally who provide him the cash flow to invest in developing his car manufacturing know-how. Most of his cars are in neutral colours to maximize his marketshare.

Montreal built five Ford vehicles and owns and operates all of them except one he leases out to his buddy Quebec City. All of Montreal's cars are emblazoned with images of his face and he thinks his car leasing "conglomerate" is better and more important than Toronto...

Spoken like a true mistercorporate!

[esquire]

Originally Posted by tremblay

Even though only 16.5% of people form Quebec voted conservative in 2011, Canada -and Quebec- have been lead by a majority Conservatives since then. Accepting this fate is bowing down to me.

What about those times that the Conservatives won governments that included substantial Quebec seat counts? What if the NDP wins this time?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

What about those times that the Conservatives won governments that included substantial Quebec seat counts? What if the NDP wins this time?

I believe that's only happened twice in living memory. With Diefenbaker and Mulroney. The Mulroneyites in particular were red tories.

[tremblay]

Originally Posted by esquire

The funny thing about your scenario is that it will be pretty much business as usual in Quebec... Montreal will continue to be the business/cultural/education hub for Quebec as it has been for about the last 400 years or so. Nothing will change in that regard.

Yet somehow the thought that under current demographic trends, Quebec is poised to no longer going to be a big fish in the Canadian pond is so unbearable that the only response will be to separate?

Culturally I personally don't mind, it's the political and the business parts that concern me and others a lot more. Projections expect 18% of francophones in 2031 (see reply to mistercorporate); we've already seen it in 2011 that it's possible to get elected -majority government - without Quebec now what would it be in the coming decades. And some for economics, Montreal would benefit a lot more from being a metropolis of a sovereign country than being a regional hub in Canada. For instance, I wouldn't be surprised Harper favored Calgary over Montreal economically during his reign. No big deal, but that's what happen when you lose relevance.

Originally Posted by esquire

But you are probably right about the indifference growing within Canada. At one time, Quebec separation would have been perceived as something analogous to losing some critical internal organs... the continued existence of the nation itself would have been threatened. Now it would be regarded maybe along the lines of losing one's hand. An inconvenience for sure, but by no means something that couldn't be overcome.

No wonder, English Canada has been defining itself on its own since the last decade or so; and there is absolutely nothing wrong with this.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

Let's turn this around for a moment.

So Acajack, are you seriously suggesting that Montreal's proficiency at catering to the 1/5 of Canada's population that is Francophone somehow gives it a claim to being Canada's true cultural capital despite being blown away by Toronto in every conceivable metric that doesn't start with "French language"?

If I may, I'll turn it around even more. Here are my main points:

- I don't think Canada is the type of country where one can say there is one city that is the entire country's cultural capital. I guess bean-counters can count up all of the stuff that they like count if they want and conclude that it's Toronto, but it's basically a meaningless statistic. The truth is no single city has a strong inescapable metropolis-style cultural impact from coast to coast in Canada.

- Even if you isolate English Canada and take us out of the equation, Toronto's cultural presence is still weaker than what one might expect in both Toronto itself and its hinterland, especially for a city of 6 million that presides over a cultural nation/hinterland that has about 27 million people (give or take).

[Acajack]

I should reiterate that the book by Jane Jacobs that tremblay recommended is very interestig, even though it was written 35 years ago:

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6..._of_Separatism

Another good book is "Thinking English Canada" by Phillip Resnick.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Why should people in Red Deer pay attention to a Toronto talk show when Torontonians themselves prefer Jimmy Kimmel, etc?

Why would they listen to Bob McCown on TSN Sports Radio talk about the NFL when they can listen to Jim Rome from the States talk about the NFL?

Why does the rest of Canada need Toronto as an intermediary to channel U.S. culture to them? Simply because, as Nathan alluded to, because it's good for corporate coffers in Toronto to have the ad money going to people in the 416 as opposed to crossing the border?

That is an excellent post, never really thought about it that way,

[esquire]

Global TV of the 80s and 90s is the archetypal example of a Canadian broadcaster whose stock in trade historically was limited to repackaging US cultural content for Canadian consumption. But Toronto goes way beyond just that... to chalk Toronto up solely as some sort of cultural middleman is to do a disservice to the arts and entertainment that are actually created in that city.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by tremblay

No wonder, English Canada has been defining itself on its own since the last decade or so; and there is absolutely nothing wrong with this.

Of course.

One of the challenges of this exercise has been determining if and how "Quebec/francophones" fit into the equation. To some degree, it's also been a struggle to determine what to do with the aboriginal question.

In stark contrast to many other countries around the world, the issue of immigrants and immigration has on the other hand been dealt with very effectively and satisfactorily during this self-definition process.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

Global TV of the 80s and 90s is the archetypal example of a Canadian broadcaster whose stock in trade historically was limited to repackaging US cultural content for Canadian consumption. But Toronto goes way beyond just that... to chalk Toronto up solely as some sort of cultural middleman is to do a disservice to the arts and entertainment that are actually created in that city.

That's a good point, but the lines are often very blurred unfortunately...

[tremblay]

Originally Posted by Acajack

One of the challenges of this exercise has been determining if and how "Quebec/francophones" fit into the equation. To some degree, it's also been a struggle to determine what to do with the aboriginal question.

In stark contrast to many other countries around the world, the issue of immigrants and immigration has on the other hand been dealt with very effectively and satisfactorily during this self-definition process.

For English Canadians I just don't think Quebec fit in much in their idea of Canada beyond the symbolics/historical aspects related to it. Canadians know very few things about Quebec and don,t have much curiosity to start with. I mean I see a lot more interest in Europe -even out of francophone Europe-, in contemporary Quebec culture than I've seen in the RoC. I might be talking out of my ass but was Mommy screened at all in the RoC except in film festivals? Just in Amsterdam, we had 5 film theaters screening it; when I went it was completely full.

To be fair, I think English Canadians have such a big thirst for American culture that I don't think they've got any curiosity left -appart for that superficial "interest" for all thing immigrant- for any other culture be it Quebecois, aboriginal or hell even their own.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by tremblay

For English Canadians I just don't think Quebec fit in much in their idea of Canada beyond the symbolics/historical aspects related to it. Canadians know very few things about Quebec and don,t have much curiosity to start with. I mean I see a lot more interest in Europe -even out of francophone Europe-, in contemporary Quebec culture than I've seen in the RoC. I might be talking out of my ass but was Mommy screened at all in the RoC except in film festivals? Just in Amsterdam, we had 5 film theaters screening it; when I went it was completely full.

To be fair, I think English Canadians have such a big thirst for American culture that I don't think they've got any curiosity left -appart for that superficial "interest" for all thing immigrant- for any other culture be it Quebecois, aboriginal or hell even their own.

Well every larger city in Canada has at least one repertory (art house) cinema and so Mommy would have gotten at least a one-week screening in those places I am almost sure. So it probably was not just a film festival thing. But of course, a film like Mommy would probably never have played in your average mainstream cinema, or had several cinemas in a city showing it. Maybe in Toronto it might have had more than one, not sure...

In Ottawa, Quebec films and non-American films in general get shown at the Bytowne Cinema, which is right downtown near the University of Ottawa at the corner of Rideau St. and King Edward (the road that leads to the main bridge to Gatineau). Mommy would have played there.

Of course if you live in Ottawa you also have access to Quebec (and also French films) that get mainstream releases in the Gatineau multiplex cinemas.

[Acajack]

Mommy made about 3 million dollars at the box office in Quebec. About 300,000 outside Quebec. Which is more than I thought it would have.

Bon Cop Bad Cop, which had more commercial appeal (in addition to being a truly bilingual film - that was a big part of the idea), made something like 11 million in Quebec and 1.5 million outside Quebec.

[niwell]

I know Mommy played at least at the TIFF theatre at King and Peter in Toronto. Not sure how long. It was also included in their top 10 Canadian film festival back in January.

When looking at the top 10 list, Quebec made films that are presumably set in Quebec are disproportionately featured. There are 4 of them: http://tiff.net/festivals/ctt14/features

The first listed film is by David Cronenberg (who is from, and identifies as being a Torontonian) and is a satire about the Hollywood movie business and set in LA. Of course he does have many films set in Toronto as well.

Just some interesting observations!

On another note, the TIFF theatre has been invaluable in bringing many art-house and foreign films to a slick mainstream venue with marketing. There are of course many smaller cinemas that play them as well.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by niwell

I know Mommy played at least at the TIFF theatre at King and Peter in Toronto. Not sure how long. It was also included in their top 10 Canadian film festival back in January.

When looking at the top 10 list, Quebec made films that are presumably set in Quebec are disproportionately featured. There are 4 of them: http://tiff.net/festivals/ctt14/features

The first listed film is by David Cronenberg (who is from, and identifies as being a Torontonian) and is a satire about the Hollywood movie business and set in LA. Of course he does have many films set in Toronto as well.

Just some interesting observations!

On another note, the TIFF theatre has been invaluable in bringing many art-house and foreign films to a slick mainstream venue with marketing. There are of course many smaller cinemas that play them as well.

Interesting. How was the top 10 list arrived at? A compilation of critical reviews?

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by tremblay

It's a long-term trend. In 1840, Canada was 45% francophone; this went down to 28% in 1961 and it was 22.1% in 2006 (Histoire de deux nationalismes au Canada, Maurice Séguin). The proportion is expected to go gradually down to 18.4% in 2031 and 16% in 2056 (Termote). You reach a certain point when such a small minority becomes marginalized; not saying it's the case now, I'm just arguing this is inevitable givnig current demographics.

The Anglophone population has - at least in terms of percentages - also been on the decline for quite a while. The Allophone population has, unsurprisingly, been exploding. IIRC, the number of Anglophones and Allophones who can speak French has been climbing fairly steadily for a few decades.

WRT Toronto's place in Canadian culture, I'd add that we're unquestionably at the centre of the (English) Canadian publishing industry, both on the creative side and on the business side. Literature (along with music perhaps) is likely English Canada's greatest cultural export. It is undoubtedly distinct and voraciously consumed by a fairly large chunk of the population. Now, this may not be the most ideal metric for judging Toronto's place in the Canadian literary scene, but it's worth noting that 2/3 of Canada's Man Booker winners are Torontonians and 9/21 of the winners of the Giller Prize are either from here or have leaved here for a significant time (the rest of the winners are scattered around the country in smaller cities and towns).

I don't see what this has to do with sports in Canadian culture though. I assume this started off with a "Toronto LOVES American football and doesn't even care about the CFL!" rant - in which case, I'd argue the CFL is irrelevant here because football in general is pretty irrelevant here. Where football is played in the city - in high schools and universities - it is almost always Canadian football.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

The Anglophone population has - at least in terms of percentages - also been on the decline for quite a while. The Allophone population has, unsurprisingly, been exploding. IIRC, the number of Anglophones and Allophones who can speak French has been climbing fairly steadily for a few decades.

WRT Toronto's place in Canadian culture, I'd add that we're unquestionably at the centre of the (English) Canadian publishing industry, both on the creative side and on the business side. Literature (along with music perhaps) is likely English Canada's greatest cultural export. It is undoubtedly distinct and voraciously consumed by a fairly large chunk of the population. Now, this may not be the most ideal metric for judging Toronto's place in the Canadian literary scene, but it's worth noting that 2/3 of Canada's Man Booker winners are Torontonians and 9/21 of the winners of the Giller Prize are either from here or have leaved here for a significant time (the rest of the winners are scattered around the country in smaller cities and towns).

I don't see what this has to do with sports in Canadian culture though. I assume this started off with a "Toronto LOVES American football and doesn't even care about the CFL!" rant - in which case, I'd argue the CFL is irrelevant here because football in general is pretty irrelevant here. Where football is played in the city - in high schools and universities - it is almost always Canadian football.

Believe it or not it actually started off with a statement that FIFA would never consider holding the World Cup final anywhere else but Toronto in Canada (e.g. Montreal) because was the uncontested centre of everything for Canada - including culture - and no one else was even close. (It's also related to the fact that the second city in Brazil, Rio de Janeiro, hosted the final in 2014.)