Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by osmo

MLB in Montreal is viable as not many other options left for markets in the USA

Charlotte, Portland, Nashville....

Mexico City is a pipedream for a number of reasons (altitude being one) but Monterey makes sense on a number of different levels. Montreal is probably at the top of the list but all applicants need owners and stadiums. Vancouver gets thrown around some but stadium would be a giant hurdle.

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

I don't think you can build a "no-frills" MLB stadium with 35,000 seats for $200 million. That $200 million stadium proposed for Montreal in the late 90s would probably be $500 million today...maybe even slightly more.

Absolutely.

[osmo]

I don't understand why the Texas Rangers can't renovate the stadium and install larger awnings to cover the seats?

Maybe people don't go to games because the Rangers have been up and down and inconsistent for the past 20 years. Maybe also because the ballpark is in a suburban bog that makes sense for ten football games a year but is a stretch for 80 games?

Arlington Ballpark is a gem. A quirky suburban model that was a retro style response to Skydome which attempted to copy the same "mixed-use" elements by incorporating an office building into the ballpark.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by osmo

I don't understand why the Texas Rangers can't renovate the stadium and install larger awnings to cover the seats?

The awnings would protect the fans from the sun and the extra heat it gives off, but I'd imagine it's still too hot even in the shade in Texas. It's not going to compete with a roof and air conditioning. Phoenix opened their baseball stadium just 4 years later, and they were smart enough to build it with a retractable roof.

[cjones2451]

Originally Posted by Berklon

The awnings would protect the fans from the sun and the extra heat it gives off, but I'd imagine it's still too hot even in the shade in Texas. It's not going to compete with a roof and air conditioning. Phoenix opened their baseball stadium just 4 years later, and they were smart enough to build it with a retractable roof.

Houston has the same thing with Minute Maid Park....Same with Miami too. But getting a new stadium after 20 years seems so Atlanta

[TorontoDrew]

The rangers have ODOR so they suck. As for the stadium maybe structurally they can't add awnings? It's a decent venue otherwise.

[blueandgoldguy]

Ohhhhh. Snap Edmonton!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...ena-1.4313740?

"One of the reasons Calgary is in this situation right now is because so many other cities have so weakly capitulated when Bettman and their billionaire buddies have made the exact same threats," said National Post columnist Jen Gerson.

"Edmonton is the clear example of this. I mean, clearly, so much of Edmonton's flagging, sad, little ego is tied up in their hockey success that they needed to sign a scam of a deal to give a sweetheart arena over to (Oilers owner) Daryl Katz. And now all of a sudden the expectation is that Calgary is going to fall in line?"

"I'm afraid we're not that pathetic," she said. "We're just not that pathetic, as a city."

[Jaws]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

Ohhhhh. Snap Edmonton!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...ena-1.4313740?

"One of the reasons Calgary is in this situation right now is because so many other cities have so weakly capitulated when Bettman and their billionaire buddies have made the exact same threats," said National Post columnist Jen Gerson.

"Edmonton is the clear example of this. I mean, clearly, so much of Edmonton's flagging, sad, little ego is tied up in their hockey success that they needed to sign a scam of a deal to give a sweetheart arena over to (Oilers owner) Daryl Katz. And now all of a sudden the expectation is that Calgary is going to fall in line?"

"I'm afraid we're not that pathetic," she said. "We're just not that pathetic, as a city."

Blah, blah, blah. Sounds like someone is jealous. How can it be that Edmonton can have something that they don’t have?

[speedog]

Originally Posted by Jaws

Blah, blah, blah. Sounds like someone is jealous. How can it be that Edmonton can have something that they don’t have?

Well they have The West Edmonton Mall and I am quite happy with that being a three hour drive north of me.

[BlackRedGold]

Originally Posted by Jaws

Blah, blah, blah. Sounds like someone is jealous. How can it be that Edmonton can have something that they don’t have?

Clearly they don't want what Edmonton has - an NHL rink financed primarily off the backs of taxpayers - so why are they jealous?

[Jaws]

Originally Posted by BlackRedGold

Clearly they don't want what Edmonton has - an NHL rink financed primarily off the backs of taxpayers - so why are they jealous?

Time to do some research before spouting off. This is being funded by a CRL, ticket tax and the Oilers. The city borrowed the money and the aforementioned revenue sources are paying off the loan.

[240glt]

They didn't pay for the arena with magic beans, they money came from somewhere. Yes it was financed in large part by taxpayers

[speedog]

Originally Posted by Jaws

Time to do some research before spouting off. This is being funded by a CRL, ticket tax and the Oilers. The city borrowed the money and the aforementioned revenue sources are paying off the loan.

The Oilers only put up $20 million, the rest of the monies the Oilers agreed to pay was funded up front by the CoE.. And the CRL monies, if no arena then where could've those monies been used?

[BlackRedGold]

Originally Posted by Jaws

Time to do some research before spouting off. This is being funded by a CRL, ticket tax and the Oilers. The city borrowed the money and the aforementioned revenue sources are paying off the loan.

I'm going to guess you're from Edmonton, the land where the Oilers can do no wrong even when they're drafting first year after year. I'm going to guess Katz didn't flirt with Seattle to pay for everything himself.

According to Wikipedia (and please correct me if Wikipedia is wrong), here's where the money is coming from:

$279 million from the Community Revitalization Levy (CRL) and other incremental revenues (increased parking revenue, reallocation of existing subsidy paid to Northlands and new taxes from business in the arena)
$125 million from ticket surcharge on all events in the new arena
$137.81 million from lease revenue for the Arena
$23.68 million in cash from Edmonton Arena Corporation
$25 million from other government sources


The $279M is money from the city. The CRL is property tax revenue and the other things are all money from the city. This is almost 50% of the cost.

The $125M is presumably a loan from the city being paid back by the Oilers and whoever else is running events at the arena.

$137.81M is presumably a loan the city is giving out that is being paid back by the Oilers. But with the city owning the building, what is the property tax on it?

$23.68M is how much Katz directly put into the arena.

$25M is more taxpayer money spent on the arena.

So tell me again who is financing the arena?

[WhipperSnapper]

Jen Gerson a pseudonym for Trump? Why be so divisive with belittling Edmonton? They're not the Calgary Flames organization.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Jen Gerson a pseudonym for Trump? Why be so divisive with belittling Edmonton? They're not the Calgary Flames organization.

Calgary-Edmonton sibling rivalry showing a bit there?

After reading the piece, it's basically the opinion of 3 analysts - it's a non-news item. There's no new information here, just 3 people giving their opinion.

We've covered this pretty extensively already in this thread.

[speedog]

A CRL could've been used in many ways besides an arena, that's all I'm saying. Katz was the real winner here in only having to fork out $20 million of his own money, pocket change for him.

[speedog]

It doesn't really matter where the CoE got the monies, the simple fact remains s that the CoE has taken over 95% of the initial financial risk that will decrease over time. CSEC would most likely love to have a similar deal I'm Calgary but right now it appears very few in Calgary are willing to bankroll a similar project to such an extent with debt that will be carried by the CoC..

But the CoE had three wonderful facilities in the new arena, Commonwealth Stadium and the Butterdome of which the CoC has nothing that can even remotely compete on the same level. I do not believe that the CoE has bled their finance well dry to get this arena deal done or at least I hope they haven't.

Never the less, some of these things should probably be built sooner than later in the CoC - just not sure how we'll get there in the CoC..

[itom 987]

240glt, I would totally agree with you if the deal consisted of only the arena itself. But the fact that Katz has helped build Stantec Tower, JW Marriott hotel, City of Edmonton tower and the Ice District means he has been living up to his side of the deal. Will the deal make Katz a lot of money? It looks like it, but Katz has taken on lot of risk as well. Lets be honest here, most developers don't have the guts do what Katz is doing in a place like Edmonton.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by itom 987

240glt, I would totally agree with you if the deal consisted of only the arena itself. But the fact that Katz has helped build Stantec Tower, JW Marriott hotel, City of Edmonton tower and the Ice District means he has been living up to his side of the deal. Will the deal make Katz a lot of money? It looks like it, but Katz has taken on lot of risk as well. Lets be honest here, most developers don't have the guts do what Katz is doing in a place like Edmonton.

You're confusing guts with political connections. Others developers would have stepped up their game too if handed such a sweetheart deal. Stantec was going to sign a lease downtown and they were looking for new. The CofE was staying downtown too. You would still have office construction even if Katz didn't have his competitive advantage to win these RFPs.

Great photo. Exemplifies how internally focused the design of the ICE District blocks are. That's one a cold, bland streetscape.

[itom 987]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

You're confusing guts with political connections. Others developers would have stepped up their game too if handed such a sweetheart deal. Stantec was going to sign a lease downtown and they were looking for new. The CofE was staying downtown too. You would still have office construction even if Katz didn't have his competitive advantage to win these RFPs.

Great photo. Exemplifies how internally focused the design of the ICE District blocks are. That's one a cold, bland streetscape.

Your comment above shows a complete lack of understanding of what was available at the time.

I am aware that there were something like 7 proposals that showed up when the City of Edmonton tower RFP was announced. One of them was to convert a company owned park on Jasper Avenue into a tower. Another wanted to demolish an old movie theatre, another one wanted to fill a small parking lot, yet another one wanted to build a 'flatiron' style skyscraper in the quarters. Another developer wanted to build a tower just east or Epcor Tower, another wanted to replace a park in front of the Hotel McDonald into a tower,. Another proposal was to build on an already existing podium (Manulife Place 2). I am very sure that all those proposals would have gave Stantec the opportunity as well.

Yes, those proposals would have happened if Katz never purchased the Oilers. We would have been left with a little change here and a little change there but nothing truly transformative. The buildings built would not have been as iconic as what is being built in the Ice District. If chosen, Manulife Place 2 would have been the tallest of them all at 600 feet.

Katz purchased two entirely undeveloped blocks, the Staples site and many other sites around Rogers Place. No other developer offered so much change to the largest hole in downtown's urban fabric. The towers proposed were all significantly larger than the ones proposed by other developers. The residences on the top half of Stantec Tower, I believe that is solely Katz doing, and I bet the same goes for the residences on top of the JW Marriott hotel. Wow, talk about bold moves... As for City of Edmonton tower, it was on the closest site to City Hall so the choice for them was obvious.

I'll take that cold bland streetscape over the black hole that was there before any day. Oh; bye the way, did you know that a restaurant called "Joey Bell Tower" was built beside the podium of Bell Tower on the opposite side of the City of Edmonton tower in that photo that Katz has nothing to do with? I'm sure you heard of it before but didn't remember, your welcome!