Edmonton Roads

[240glt]

Originally Posted by milomilo

I do agree those divided highways are garbage, but it doesn't seem any worse than BC's version of shitty 4 lane highways:

https://www.google.com/maps/@55.5112...7i13312!8i6656

I was speaking specifically to divided, 4 lane highways. In BC you don't see level crossings at 4 lane divided highways like you do on the highways around Edmonton.

That example you posted is the highway to Dawson Creek yes ? Do you really think the highway to Dawson from GP needs a 4 lane divided highway ? I haven't driven that one in a while but I don't think it's that congested.. There's like three cars on the highway in the link. The only highways in BC with consistently comparable traffic to the QE2 are highways in the lower mainland like the # 1 and 99. I drive BC highways all the time, and the only one that I can think of that is sorely lacking in both capacity and separation is the TCH between Chase and Field, which I agree has stretches that are woefully inadequate.

Originally Posted by itom 987

Two lane shit highways still cover most of BC.

Funny, whenever I drive back from BC and hit Alberta we always joke that we must be back in Alberta because the roads have turned to shit LOL

[kcantor]

Originally Posted by Hardhatdan

It's not a problem with the public approach it is a demographic issue. We have a young and old population with a gap in the middle due to big boom and bust cycles.
Older people need more medical services, younger people need more schools.
How the money pays for those ultimately comes from the people that live here, either direct to the institution or via taxation. It's only a question of efficieny and desires outcomes.

really? where would you be finding numbers that would indicate that?

if the middle is 35 - 49, the percentage of albertans in that category is 7.94%.

that compares to 7.10% of the canadian population as a whole.

for bc that number drops to 6.75%.

if you want to look at 75 - 79, in alberta that's 2.16% of the population.

for canada that segment is 3.13% of the population and for bc it's 3.15%.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...ers%5B1%5D=2.1

in addition to that - and maybe partly because a high proportion of alberta's population is neither young nor old but working - as far as i know alberta still has the highest gdp, highest wages and the highest net income per capita in the country and actually still ranks quite well world-wide in these area.

if our roads - and our schools and our healthcare etc. - are not quite as highly ranked/rated, it probably has to do with lower spending levels which in turn probably comes from lower government revenues. funny how in looking at that we are still the only jurisdiction without a sales or value added tax. one might think that might have more to do with it than minor demographic variances?

[Hardhatdan]

Originally Posted by kcantor

really? where would you be finding numbers that would indicate that?

if the middle is 35 - 49, the percentage of albertans in that category is 7.94%.

that compares to 7.10% of the canadian population as a whole.

for bc that number drops to 6.75%.

if you want to look at 75 - 79, in alberta that's 2.16% of the population.

for canada that segment is 3.13% of the population and for bc it's 3.15%.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...ers%5B1%5D=2.1

in addition to that - and maybe partly because a high proportion of alberta's population is neither young nor old but working - as far as i know alberta still has the highest gdp, highest wages and the highest net income per capita in the country and actually still ranks quite well world-wide in these area.

if our roads - and our schools and our healthcare etc. - are not quite as highly ranked/rated, it probably has to do with lower spending levels which in turn probably comes from lower government revenues. funny how in looking at that we are still the only jurisdiction without a sales or value added tax. one might think that might have more to do with it than minor demographic variances?

Well I look at it like this:
There are 277.5k 0-4 age people in 2018 vs. 267.8k 0-4 age people in 2014.
There are 276.3k 5-9 age people in 2018 vs. 255.0k 5-9 age people in 2014.
Both of those show continually growing numbers for those who have to go through all of the school system.

There are 250.0k 60-64 age people in 2018 vs. 208.0k 60-64 age people in 2014.
There are 187.8k 65-69 age people in 2018 vs. 157.2k 65-69 age people in 2014.
Both of those show continually growing numbers for those who unfortunately are entering the phase in their life where health issues start to increase.

I don't disagree with your point that there is revenue issue overall.
I can admit that I overstated a "missing middle" due to the booms, but there is an increased demand on both services that were being maligned that isn't going to stop.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by 240glt

I was speaking specifically to divided, 4 lane highways. In BC you don't see level crossings at 4 lane divided highways like you do on the highways around Edmonton.

That example you posted is the highway to Dawson Creek yes ? Do you really think the highway to Dawson from GP needs a 4 lane divided highway ? I haven't driven that one in a while but I don't think it's that congested.. There's like three cars on the highway in the link. The only highways in BC with consistently comparable traffic to the QE2 are highways in the lower mainland like the # 1 and 99. I drive BC highways all the time, and the only one that I can think of that is sorely lacking in both capacity and separation is the TCH between Chase and Field, which I agree has stretches that are woefully inadequate.



Funny, whenever I drive back from BC and hit Alberta we always joke that we must be back in Alberta because the roads have turned to shit LOL

BC just does shitty highways in a different way to Alberta, and on average they are shittier. That can be fairly blamed on the tougher terrain, but it is still a fact that as soon as you cross the border the roads in general have fewer lanes, more lights, lower speed limits, less consistency and more bullshit.

What also doesn't help BC's case is your proclivity to only upgrade roads sporadically in small, unconnected sections. The section of road I linked to from the AB border to FSJ has been hellish most times I've driven it, as there is always a tiny section of it being upgraded, but that construction causes the road to backup. Same with Highway 1 as soon as you cross the border and the further you head into BC - sporadic construction and zero consistency.

[240glt]

Originally Posted by milomilo

BC just does shitty highways in a different way to Alberta, and on average they are shittier. That can be fairly blamed on the tougher terrain, but it is still a fact that as soon as you cross the border the roads in general have fewer lanes, more lights, lower speed limits, less consistency and more bullshit.

What also doesn't help BC's case is your proclivity to only upgrade roads sporadically in small, unconnected sections. The section of road I linked to from the AB border to FSJ has been hellish most times I've driven it, as there is always a tiny section of it being upgraded, but that construction causes the road to backup. Same with Highway 1 as soon as you cross the border and the further you head into BC - sporadic construction and zero consistency.

I suppose to Albertans who are only capable of driving at 140kph in a straight line and loose their minds at the slightest bend, the roads could be considered shitter That's a bit of a running joke in BC but it has some basis in reality.

BC roads are maybe more difficult for Albertans to navigate due to terrain, narrower roads that serve less populated areas, etc but the actual road conditions are far better in BC.

I do agree that the sporadic construction is a pain. Most of the time you face, what, a 10 minute delay ? Here in Alberta they decided to resurface the entire stretch of highway from Edson to Hinton in one shot which added over an hour to the drive. Granted it's done so assumedly it won't have to be done again for a while but it was a nightmare while they were doing it, and a year later it's all falling apart again

[milomilo]

TBH, I haven't noticed a lot of difference in the road conditions but you may be correct. It seems to take a few repavings before everything fully settles down - I think they actually plan for that when they build them.

You mentioned that divided highways in Alberta have crappy grade intersections on them and I totally agree they suck. But at least you can maintain a constant speed on them for the most part, unlike highway 1 from the border to Kelowna where it is just constant bullshit. And it's not like BC ever intends to fix it! They are only committed to '4 laning', on an infinite timeline. Even when they upgrade the roads, there are still lights and grade intersections.

I do like BC's approach to grade intersections though. If you or Alberta must have grade intersections, at least build them in a way that is safe. Protected T-intersections:



We have one up at Peace River now.

[Landlocked]

Originally Posted by milomilo

TBH, I haven't noticed a lot of difference in the road conditions but you may be correct. It seems to take a few repavings before everything fully settles down - I think they actually plan for that when they build them.

You mentioned that divided highways in Alberta have crappy grade intersections on them and I totally agree they suck. But at least you can maintain a constant speed on them for the most part, unlike highway 1 from the border to Kelowna where it is just constant bullshit. And it's not like BC ever intends to fix it! They are only committed to '4 laning', on an infinite timeline. Even when they upgrade the roads, there are still lights and grade intersections.

I do like BC's approach to grade intersections though. If you or Alberta must have grade intersections, at least build them in a way that is safe. Protected T-intersections:



We have one up at Peace River now.

Don't forget the wonderful roads through most of the B.C. mountains where tractor-trailers go well below the speed limit up the hill then floor it down the hill when the frustrated vehicles behind them are finally able to legally pass.

[240glt]

Originally Posted by milomilo

TBH, I haven't noticed a lot of difference in the road conditions but you may be correct. It seems to take a few repavings before everything fully settles down - I think they actually plan for that when they build them.

You mentioned that divided highways in Alberta have crappy grade intersections on them and I totally agree they suck. But at least you can maintain a constant speed on them for the most part, unlike highway 1 from the border to Kelowna where it is just constant bullshit. And it's not like BC ever intends to fix it! They are only committed to '4 laning', on an infinite timeline. Even when they upgrade the roads, there are still lights and grade intersections.

I do like BC's approach to grade intersections though. If you or Alberta must have grade intersections, at least build them in a way that is safe. Protected T-intersections:



We have one up at Peace River now.

I think you're referring to hwy 97 south from Kelowna. Yes in the middle of the tourist season it is jam packed. We did that route last year from Osoyoos all the way up through Vernon last year and it's a nightmare. I wouldn't do it again in the middle of summer but outside tourist season it's not that bad. The thing is that you can't put a 4 lane divided highway right on the same track as the existing highway and a bypass would have to go way up on the side of the mountain, from what I heard, local residents don't even want that.

The ability to maintain constant speed is more of a function of the terrain and traffic on it, as Landlocked noted, generally it's fine until you run into a semi (or even worse, one of those evil Canadream rental motorhomes) I agree in an ideal world you'd be able to get to wherever you want to go at 120kph, but again most of the destinations in the interior don't have the population densities to warrant a 4 lane divided highway. They are making progress... the Wood Lake bypass in Lake Country between Vernon & Kelowna is a most welcome upgrade. Highway 97 is now 4 lanes from Armstrong all the way down to Peachland. BC's solution on other highways seems to be to add passing lanes which is a bit of a stop gap solution but at least, on the routes I travel, you can get past traffic easily enough. When we travel in BC I try to do it mid week. That makes a significant difference. The traffic west of Calgary on the TCH to the park on a summer long weekend is as bad or worse than any traffic in BC, and that's a 4 lane divided highway

[lubicon]

Originally Posted by milomilo

I do like BC's approach to grade intersections though. If you or Alberta must have grade intersections, at least build them in a way that is safe. Protected T-intersections:

We have one up at Peace River now.

On the West Hill?

Originally Posted by 240glt

I agree in an ideal world you'd be able to get to wherever you want to go at 120kph, but again most of the destinations in the interior don't have the population densities to warrant a 4 lane divided highway.

I'll agree with this with one stipulation. Regardless of population density the two TCH segments (#1 and #16) justify being 4 lane grade divided in their entirety. The volume of commercial goods they carry and thus their importance to the national economy more than justify the price of doing it.

[240glt]

I'll agree with this with one stipulation. Regardless of population density the two TCH segments (#1 and #16) justify being 4 lane grade divided in their entirety. The volume of commercial goods they carry and thus their importance to the national economy more than justify the price of doing it.

Yes absolutely agreed, both of those routes should be twinned end to end. It frustrates me to no end that after the long drive to Hinton from Edmonton you hit a two lane highway. I wish 16 was twinned through Jasper & Robson parks but it doesn't sound like that's ever going to happen. The drive though Jasper is the worst part of the route that we take to the Cariboo. At least we finally got a bypass at the west gate so those of us who are blowing right through don't have to stop and wait.

[canucklehead2]

Originally Posted by 240glt

Yes absolutely agreed, both of those routes should be twinned end to end. It frustrates me to no end that after the long drive to Hinton from Edmonton you hit a two lane highway. I wish 16 was twinned through Jasper & Robson parks but it doesn't sound like that's ever going to happen. The drive though Jasper is the worst part of the route that we take to the Cariboo. At least we finally got a bypass at the west gate so those of us who are blowing right through don't have to stop and wait.

Tell me about it. The tourist and truck traffic through Jasper adds at least 45 min to the drive which although gorgeous can get as frustrating as driving through downtown Edmonton on a Friday afternoon. I'd be happy with even 3 lanes like most of the stretch between Valemount and the west park gates... Or Highway 99 between Horseshoe Bay and Whistler...

[Airboy]

Originally Posted by canucklehead2

Tell me about it. The tourist and truck traffic through Jasper adds at least 45 min to the drive which although gorgeous can get as frustrating as driving through downtown Edmonton on a Friday afternoon. I'd be happy with even 3 lanes like most of the stretch between Valemount and the west park gates... Or Highway 99 between Horseshoe Bay and Whistler...

One reason I leave early to get through Jasper before the tourist traffic gets out. If you get to the gates by 9 its pretty good through the park. And no idiots stopping in the middle of the highway to get a shot of an elk.

I wished the province would at least finish the twinning up to the park. There really is no reason that should still be 2 lanes.

[feepa]

Originally Posted by the.tru.albertan

AB Trans has(had?) a 25 year plan to make QEII at true freeway with no at grade intersections at all. I have almost zero faith that it will ever happen in my lifetime as they are way behind even simple projects like widening in certain areas.

That's what we get with AB Trans.

Now, if you privatized it and tolled users, you'd probably see it become a true freeway in 5 years. Along with widening to 6 and 8 lanes and proper overpasses. It would basically be the 'age of enlightenment' for highway infrastructure in Alberta.

Ya the previous PC governments had lots of plans but never followed through on most of them and have left us in quite the infrastructure debt. Good news! We just voted in the new PC government that wants to raise taxes and lower services. More shelved plans!

[the.tru.albertan]

Originally Posted by feepa

Ya the previous PC governments had lots of plans but never followed through on most of them and have left us in quite the infrastructure debt. Good news! We just voted in the new PC government that wants to raise taxes and lower services. More shelved plans!

Where are you? Edmonton? How's that ring road working for you?

The Calgary/Edmonton ring roads were/are at the expense of the rest of Alberta road improvements. I witnessed multiple projects get cut, some cut multiple times in Central Alberta.

Still waiting on three lanes each way on QEII from 597 to 42. Even the NDP didn't make that one happen. They did however make it happen on a rural section north of Airdrie - because 'priorities' I guess.

[Jaws]

Originally Posted by the.tru.albertan

Where are you? Edmonton? How's that ring road working for you?

Not very well, thanks for asking. I won't drive on the W/SW sections at peak hours.

[Mikemike]

Highway infrastructure is one sector where the PC government offers hope - unlike the NDP they refused to close the door on tolls - I would love to see them put in tolls to get more infrastructure up to standard, if they were serious about deficit reduction, take over payments on those parts of the Henday and stony trail that are complete but we're still paying for via P3s.

[Jaws]

Originally Posted by Mikemike

Highway infrastructure is one sector where the PC government offers hope - unlike the NDP they refused to close the door on tolls - I would love to see them put in tolls to get more infrastructure up to standard, if they were serious about deficit reduction, take over payments on those parts of the Henday and stony trail that are complete but we're still paying for via P3s.

No thanks, not interested in tolls. I’ll accept a PST if the government is looking for additional revenue. Tolls are suitable in denser locales such a S. Ont where there’s a choice of routes (eg 401 vs 407). If a private company, such as SNC, wants to build a toll hwy parallel to QE2, more power to them.

[mintzilla]

What’s the schedule for repainting lines on the roads? I can’t see shit out there sometimes.

[240glt]

Can't see toll roads working here in Alberta. Too many alternate routes through most of the province. Gas tax on all personal and commercial vehicles that goes directly to road infrastructure maybe.


106 Ave bridge across WGD is down to 2 lanes again, they failed to finish the project last year so it'll be another summer of delays. I was hoping they'd put a sidewalk on the north side of the bridge but no dice.

[Mikemike]

^ ^^Here's the political issues with tolls in two posts.... one saying we have too many parallel routes (so people would use the free route), the other saying that it's not fair unless there IS a free alternative.

I don't think the parallel routes are much of a problem as long as the toll isn't exorbitant, which it won't be as long as highways are owned by the government. tolls wouldn't need to be high to cover the cost of even our expensive ring roads - Charge me 5c-10c a km and I would still use just as much of the henday & yellowhead as I do now. I would also support a per-km fee but those highways are extra-expensive and don't do double duty by providing access to properties, it makes sense to charge more.

As for the lack of parallel routes being an issue, it already costs a lot of money to gain access to highways, you're just paying most of it to private businesses to get a roadworthy car, not paying for the car itself. If "free" alternatives mattered it would make more sense to have a free bus service, or a provincial network of bike routes.

by providing free freeways we're doing pretty much all that we can to make a private tolled alternative unviable. If we hadn't provided publicly subsidized freeways we probably would have a private solution by now but we've undercut the market for 100 years, it's no surprise that it's not happened.