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  #21  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2024, 9:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
More accurate history: The Social Credit Party has been BC's right-wing party for most of last century. Some centrists tried to move away to the new BC Liberals, but the SoCreds followed them, and the Libs became a centre-right party. Now that the Libs are tainted as well (as well as being more and more radicalized and crossing the aisle to the Cons), they've rebranded again, but nobody's buying it this time.
Exactly. There is a long and very clear history of centrists, centre-right and right-wing folks shifting in the shadows and using whatever political vehicle is the most expedient at a given moment. That meant taking over the BC Liberals in the 1990s when the Socred brand had reached its sell-by date, and today it means abandoning the Liberals/United for the Conservatives.

It can take a couple of election cycles for the dust to settle but eventually the coalition comes back together. We just happen to be in the middle of a period where there's a (testy) divorce.

I'd also add it is quite an indictment of our mediocre politics that the best that can be offered by the right at the moment is "we should try to merge just to defeat the NDP" rather than putting policy alternatives and ideas forward in any meaningful sense -- especially on United's part, where its clear that the openness to merging is about power, not about ideas. Maybe if they had the ability to articulate their own approach, we'd finally start changing governments by way of voting parties in, rather than out.

And that by no means excuses the Conservatives, who also seem to be focusing their platform around idiotic culture-war issues that the mainstream voter has no interest in, and tinkering around the edges on cost of living, with no actual plan to address systemic and fundamental issues. It's the NDP's election to lose, as it was a year ago.
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  #22  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2024, 12:38 AM
sunsetmountainland sunsetmountainland is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
More accurate history: The Social Credit Party has been BC's right-wing party for most of last century. Some centrists tried to move away to the new BC Liberals, but the SoCreds followed them, and the Libs became a centre-right party. Now that the Libs are tainted as well (as well as being more and more radicalized and crossing the aisle to the Cons), they've rebranded again, but nobody's buying it this time.
Yes very true the Social Credit party would be like a Conservative party. The B.C. Liberals are exactly that liberals. Like I mentioned before actions show this as it was the Gordon Campbell liberals that brought in the Carbon Tax!

This to me is an example of a center left party. I understand what you are saying about some of the Social Credit members going to the Liberals. Just like now this part of the liberal party that is Social Credit is moving to the Conservative party. Thus making the current B.C. United party left of center.

I used an example of this earlier with the Liberal Gordon Wilson joining the N.D.P when Gordon Campbell took control. Then Gordon Campbell as well as Christy Clarke after proved they are also left of center bringing in and supporting the Carbon Tax. This is the actions I am taking about as an example of a party being left or right. The actions speak what a party is even with or without rebranding!
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  #23  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2024, 12:43 AM
sunsetmountainland sunsetmountainland is offline
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Video Link


Interesting video with Wyatt Claypool related to this topic.
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  #24  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2024, 2:11 AM
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- snip -
Unless you're so far right you think Harper was a socialist, one carbon tax and a few defections does not a left-wing party make.

Before and after the carbon tax, the present BC Liberal/United Party was pro-laissez faire, pro-cuts, pro-deregulation, pro-fire sale of public assets, pro-big business, pro-fossil fuel, pro-pipeline, pro-highway, anti-higher education, anti-welfare, anti-densification, and (depending on the specific person) anti-transit and anti-mask... so rest assured, they're still firmly right of centre in British Columbia.
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  #25  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2024, 5:21 PM
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Looks like the Conservative Party of BC is picking up another MLA from BC United:

Quote:
NEW -@KevinFalcon tells @simisara980 that he expects @elenoresturko to cross the floor today to the @Conservative_BC and calls it a “personal betrayal” and that he is shocked and disappointed.
To add to the drama, Paul Ratchford, the Conservative candidate for Vancouver-Point Grey said Sturko is a "woke, lesbian, social justice warrior" and a "groomer". Hope they like being on the same team!
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  #26  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2024, 5:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Unless you're so far right you think Harper was a socialist, one carbon tax and a few defections does not a left-wing party make.

Before and after the carbon tax, the present BC Liberal/United Party was pro-laissez faire, pro-cuts, pro-deregulation, pro-fire sale of public assets, pro-big business, pro-fossil fuel, pro-pipeline, pro-highway, anti-higher education, anti-welfare, anti-densification, and (depending on the specific person) anti-transit and anti-mask... so rest assured, they're still firmly right of centre in British Columbia.
Anti-higher education! LOL. It was the BC Liberals that invested big $$$ in BC universities during their time in office. UBC was pretty long in the tooth in the late 1990's.
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  #27  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2024, 5:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanSpice View Post
Looks like the Conservative Party of BC is picking up another MLA from BC United:



To add to the drama, Paul Ratchford, the Conservative candidate for Vancouver-Point Grey said Sturko is a "woke, lesbian, social justice warrior" and a "groomer". Hope they like being on the same team!
That's a surprise as the last place I'd expect a lesbian mom to feel comfortable is with Rustad's Conservatives. Big win for them (and it is confirmed)

BREAKING

Surrey MLA Elenore Sturko defects, joins BC Conservatives
Wednesday January 3, 2024. (CityNews Image)
By Charlie Carey

Posted June 3, 2024 9:01 am. Last Updated June 3, 2024 10:25 am.
The official opposition’s run-up to the next election took another hit Monday, as Surrey South MLA Elenore Sturko confirmed she is defecting and joining the BC Conservatives.

Sturko, elected in 2022 under BC United, is just the latest gain for the Conservatives, after United Caucus Chair Lorne Doerkson, who represents Cariboo-Chilcotin, defected on Friday.


In a statement shared by the Conservatives, the former RCMP officer explained she is defecting to “rebuild the coalition that’s needed to defeat the NDP.”....


https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2024/0...conservatives/
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  #28  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2024, 6:36 PM
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I think it's pretty undeniable that the BC Conservative party has no love for transgender individuals, but let's not pretend that means they have no room for the LGB part of the acronym.

Vice versa, you also can't assume that being part of the LGB part of the acronym means you have love for the T part as well.
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  #29  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2024, 7:14 PM
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Anti-higher education! LOL. It was the BC Liberals that invested big $$$ in BC universities during their time in office. UBC was pretty long in the tooth in the late 1990's.
And then Christy Clark came along and slashed their funding.

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Originally Posted by chowhou View Post
I think it's pretty undeniable that the BC Conservative party has no love for transgender individuals, but let's not pretend that means they have no room for the LGB part of the acronym.
Generally speaking, the people who’re allergic to one letter are often allergic to all the other letters.
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  #30  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2024, 7:37 PM
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BC Conservatives are utterly insane and represent a direct threat to me and other poor LGBT people in this province.

Elenore Sturko is throwing us under the bus for a paycheque, she doens't give a rats ass about anyone but herself.
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  #31  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2024, 7:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Generally speaking, the people who’re allergic to one letter are often allergic to all the other letters.
In my experience, LGB as a group are largely accepted and acknowledged by both sides of the aisle. T, not so much.
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  #32  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2024, 7:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chowhou View Post
I think it's pretty undeniable that the BC Conservative party has no love for transgender individuals, but let's not pretend that means they have no room for the LGB part of the acronym.

Vice versa, you also can't assume that being part of the LGB part of the acronym means you have love for the T part as well.
Yeah it's almost as if there are individuals out there, not some collective that signs off on the 500 point plan to be a member of the LGBTQ2+ group.
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  #33  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2024, 8:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chowhou View Post
I think it's pretty undeniable that the BC Conservative party has no love for transgender individuals, but let's not pretend that means they have no room for the LGB part of the acronym.

Vice versa, you also can't assume that being part of the LGB part of the acronym means you have love for the T part as well.
Weeell, there is stuff like this:

Rob Shaw: Do the BC Conservatives have a vetting problem or a judgment problem?
BC Conservatives under the microscope after candidate's controversial exit
Rob Shaw
May 31, 2024

BC Conservatives are chalking up the resignation of their Courtenay-Comox candidate over homophobic social media posts to a failure in vetting. The more concerning problem for the surging party, however, is the failures it showed in judgement.

Leader John Rustad said the party’s vetting system failed to catch the social media posts of candidate Damon Scrase because, until recently, it relied mostly on party staff to comb through candidate backgrounds on top of their day-to-day duties.

“Damon had put out a number of tweets, unfortunately, that had been scrubbed from the net before we got to the vetting process,” Rustad told me.

“So we were unaware of the information that was on there.”

That’s not quite accurate, however.

Most of Scrase’s posts on the X platform (formerly Twitter) were still online for his political rivals to view when his candidacy for the BC Conservatives was approved in January.

That allowed BC United to put together a 56-page binder of the various ignorant, stupid and vile things Scrase had said in the past two or three years — material readily available to the BC Conservatives before, during and after they approved Scrase’s candidacy....

....Rustad, in an interview, refused to distance himself from Scrase’s homophobic posts or say if he disagreed with them.

“I have no comment further with regards to what he actually said,” said Rustad....



https://www.theorca.ca/commentary/ro...roblem-8921335
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  #34  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2024, 8:23 PM
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Weeell, there is stuff like this:
...
https://www.theorca.ca/commentary/ro...roblem-8921335
Err doesn't that support the thesis? Once the homophobia of the candidate was revealed they "resigned" from the candidacy. Their vetting process seems to leave a lot to be desired, but it also seems as though this is the type of behaviour they claim to want to filter out.
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  #35  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2024, 8:30 PM
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Originally Posted by chowhou View Post
In my experience, LGB as a group are largely accepted and acknowledged by both sides of the aisle. T, not so much.
Maybe. Once in a while, you overhear people talking about how homosexuals are "mentally ill," and by context, they're sure as hell not voting NDP or United.

I'm not saying there's no gay candidates/voters in the BC Cons, I'm suggesting they're going to have as much fun as an off-duty cop at a Kendrick concert.
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  #36  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2024, 8:34 PM
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Maybe. Once in a while, you overhear people talking about how homosexuals are "mentally ill," and by context, they're sure as hell not voting NDP or United.
Well I think that's only half of the equation. Yes, you're generally not going to find someone who's anti-LGB being surprisingly pro-T, but the logic doesn't reverse.

"Not supporting LGB implies not supporting T" is not equivalent prop logic to "not supporting T implies not supporting LGB".
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  #37  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2024, 8:48 PM
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Well I think that's only half of the equation. Yes, you're generally not going to find someone who's anti-LGB being surprisingly pro-T, but the logic doesn't reverse.

"Not supporting LGB implies not supporting T" is not equivalent prop logic to "not supporting T implies not supporting LGB".
I can't disprove the existence of a teapot in orbit around Pluto, but I think both of us can agree that that isn't one. Likewise, while it's theoretically possible, the Venn diagram overlap of "pro-trans" and "anti-gay" is pretty much nonexistent - the circles aren't even touching each other because they're scared people will jump to conclusions.
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  #38  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2024, 8:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
I can't disprove the existence of a teapot in orbit around Pluto, but I think both of us can agree that that isn't one. Likewise, while it's theoretically possible, the Venn diagram of "pro-trans" and "anti-gay" is pretty much nonexistent - the circles aren't even touching each other because they're scared people will jump to conclusions.
You're looking at it the wrong way. You need to be thinking about what the Venn diagram of "pro-gay" and "pro-trans" looks like. It's nowhere near a circle. It probably looks something like this where A is pro-gay and B is pro-trans.



I assure you there are a lot of British Columbians that strictly live in the A area.
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  #39  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2024, 8:59 PM
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Originally Posted by chowhou View Post
Well I think that's only half of the equation. Yes, you're generally not going to find someone who's anti-LGB being surprisingly pro-T, but the logic doesn't reverse.

"Not supporting LGB implies not supporting T" is not equivalent prop logic to "not supporting T implies not supporting LGB".
Why the fuck should it be ok to throw trans people under the bus? Are we not human? Do we not deserve the same fair treatment as anyone else?
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  #40  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2024, 9:01 PM
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You're looking at it the wrong way. You need to be thinking about what the Venn diagram of "pro-gay" and "pro-trans" looks like. It's nowhere near a circle. It probably looks something like this where A is pro-gay and B is pro-trans...

... I assure you there are a lot of British Columbians that strictly live in the A area.
Don't believe I've said otherwise - only that 1) the pro-trans, anti-gay circle C doesn't exist, and 2) the anti-trans, anti-gay circle D does not touch either of those circles, and I'm willing to bet most of those are voting BC Con.
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