Robie Street Widening

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Neither option is as fast as a tunnel, but both so many tens of millions cheaper. Although it might be a big challenge politically since anything that affects the movement of private automobiles is controversial to some.

I get the impression that transit is really popular in Halifax, overall, but that the city council is a bit timid, there isn't much long-term planning, and it doesn't connect well with what the province is doing.

I think something like streetcars would be good too in the long run and councillors at least can look at Toronto as a relatable example.

In the long run the city will probably grow a lot, there will need to be billions in transportation investment, and the sense of what is or isn't beyond the pale is probably going to change. $100M is not a big transit project for a city growing by 20k people per year.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Halifax is not only the most important centre in the Atlantic provinces, it will some day structurally be way more important than most places in Quebec and Ontario.

Now there's real Halifax hubris for you, in all it's spectacular glory and display!!!

[egb]

Originally Posted by someone123

Maybe but it's true that there's some stuff Atlantic Canada doesn't have at all because it has no major metropolitan area and Halifax is really the only place on its way to that kind of scale, plus it already offers a bunch of unique amenities to the region.

I don't think the Brier Island fisherman example is a good one. Rural NS is pretty heavily subsidized and the more Halifax grows the less of a burden that becomes. It is true that provincial revenues don't benefit people in NB or PEI.

I'd almost flip it around and say that I don't think most people (not the OP to be clear) appreciate just how much of the region's economy is driven by cities AND the towns/suburbs within a reasonable drive. Halifax and the towns/counties within an hour's drive (Bridgewater, Kentville, Truro) compose over two thirds of the provincial population and 72% of the jobs. I'm pretty sure you could do similar math for the Fredericton-Moncton-Saint John triangle.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by egb

I'd almost flip it around and say that I don't think most people (not the OP to be clear) appreciate just how much of the region's economy is driven by cities AND the towns/suburbs within a reasonable drive. Halifax and the towns/counties within an hour's drive (Bridgewater, Kentville, Truro) compose over two thirds of the provincial population and 72% of the jobs. I'm pretty sure you could do similar math for the Fredericton-Moncton-Saint John triangle.

I would agree with this sentiment.

I would also go so far as to state that I can not conceive of a situation where Halifax is not the dominant city in the region, but, the geopolitical dynamic of Atlantic Canada is such that Halifax's dominance will never be the same as Toronto's dominance in Ontario. The region is too disconnected geographically to allow this, and this is compounded by political boundaries and by provincial politics.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by egb

I'd almost flip it around and say that I don't think most people (not the OP to be clear) appreciate just how much of the region's economy is driven by cities AND the towns/suburbs within a reasonable drive. Halifax and the towns/counties within an hour's drive (Bridgewater, Kentville, Truro) compose over two thirds of the provincial population and 72% of the jobs. I'm pretty sure you could do similar math for the Fredericton-Moncton-Saint John triangle.

That's true although the cities are most of that, not the small towns. Halifax CMA is going to be over 50% of NS soon or 1/4 of the Maritime population.

I would say that this has the most impact on the argument that NS is largely rural or infrastructure in NS "for the city" doesn't help the rural areas. A lot of the remaining NS population is in counties adjacent to Halifax and for them to be 60-90 minutes away from something like an international airport or major hospital is pretty nice.

[Summerville]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I would agree with this sentiment.

I would also go so far as to state that I can not conceive of a situation where Halifax is not the dominant city in the region, but, the geopolitical dynamic of Atlantic Canada is such that Halifax's dominance will never be the same as Toronto's dominance in Ontario. The region is too disconnected geographically to allow this, and this is compounded by political boundaries and by provincial politics.

...as well as bilingualism in New Brunswick.

But as Halifax grows, it may become the central location for many companies in the Atlantic provinces, including warehouses and equipment parts.

Moncton is a hub city, but it is a hub because of its location, as opposed to its population. Its like Regina as a hub city for the prairies. At some point, companies may choose to have warehouses where the majority of the population is.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Summerville

...as well as bilingualism in New Brunswick.

But as Halifax grows, it may become the central location for many companies in the Atlantic provinces, including warehouses and equipment parts.

Moncton is a hub city, but it is a hub because of its location, as opposed to its population. Its like Regina as a hub city for the prairies. At some point, companies may choose to have warehouses where the majority of the population is.

Over time the share of urban populations relative to the total has gone up so being the hub for the rural areas means less and less. Economic complexity in the urban areas has gone up as well. I find this mode of thinking of cities as service centers for the rural areas is a bit of a Maritime-ism.

I think bilingualism in NB makes Halifax a bit more dominant and this dynamic is similar to Toronto in Canada, with Quebec being a bit separate and not really operating as another pole for English-speaking Canadians. There is even a split within NB with some of the Francophone population being more Quebec-aligned while the more southern/eastern population is more tied to Moncton. Edmundston is closer to Quebec City than to Moncton.

[q12]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I would also go so far as to state that I can not conceive of a situation where Halifax is not the dominant city in the region, but, the geopolitical dynamic of Atlantic Canada is such that Halifax's dominance will never be the same as Toronto's dominance in Ontario. The region is too disconnected geographically to allow this, and this is compounded by political boundaries and by provincial politics.

The region is more connected than ever before. Just look at the highway network today vs. 30 years ago when there were few twinned highways other than than the 102 between Halifax and Truro and it was painfully dangerous to drive around the Maritimes long distance. There was also no confederation bridge.

1979


1991

[egb]

Originally Posted by someone123

That's true although the cities are most of that, not the small towns. Halifax CMA is going to be over 50% of NS soon or 1/4 of the Maritime population.

I would say that this has the most impact on the argument that NS is largely rural or infrastructure in NS "for the city" doesn't help the rural areas. A lot of the remaining NS population is in counties adjacent to Halifax and for them to be 60-90 minutes away from something like an international airport or major hospital is pretty nice.

I don't disagree with this at all. Though I do think you will probably see more growth from Halifax start to leak out to those surrounding counties for housing shortage and remote/hybrid work reasons which will reinforce that the Core area is a bit distinct from the rest of the province in terms of its economic geography.

A lot of projects that are 'rural' in their messaging (i.e. valley and south shore highway twinning) really have the impact of facilitating regional integration.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by egb

A lot of projects that are 'rural' in their messaging (i.e. valley and south shore highway twinning) really have the impact of facilitating regional integration.

There is a big opportunity for NS to expand the amount of growth happening by improving the options that have good connectivity to the city (and airport, etc.).

Around here the Lunenburg County level properties cost millions of dollars. I had a look at what I thought was a small lot, marveled at how much cheaper it was than any similar land here, then clicked on it and it turned out it was 5 acres.

[Nouvellecosse]

It's interesting to think about how much influence a city has to it's surrounding region. Probably a lot more in a region like Manitoba with one major city surrounded by small towns and rural areas than in a region with various cities including provincial capitals. Well, technically Brandon is also a city, but with a metro area of under 55k, it's not much bigger than the Truro area.

[someone123]

On the transit topic I think it was the RMTransit YouTube channel where a video described streetcars as a kind of upgraded shorter range bus service. I think this is correct.

This is this type of thing that would probably not be built in Halifax today (because it's not the cheapest option nor does it add coverage to a new area) but should be on the menu given the intensification that is happening. And in the long term it's possible to build underground or elevated segments that make the service a bit better. Toronto has some nice stations with small underground or covered portions like Spadina or Davisville. Building something like the Spadina loop under Cogswell would have been comparatively cheap but I don't think there's any coherent long-term planning happening that makes it possible to connect all these projects together.

[q12]

Halifax growing into a respected large national metropolis will help shift how this region is treated when it comes to infrastructure money which will help connect this region better into the future.

Here is what the Federal Government currently says about region as far as regional transportation:

Transportation in Canada 2020 - Overview Report
Eastern Canada
From: Transport Canada

The Atlantic Corridor is relatively less populated than other Canadian regions. It is home to 2.3 million people, concentrated in small and scattered urban areas. Nevertheless, its network plays an important role in facilitating domestic and international trade.

https://tc.canada.ca/en/corporate-servic...ion-canada-annual-reports/eastern-canada

Stats Canada population clock has Atlantic Canada at 2.6 Million in 2023

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Summerville

Moncton is a hub city, but it is a hub because of its location, as opposed to its population. Its like Regina as a hub city for the prairies. At some point, companies may choose to have warehouses where the majority of the population is.

But Moncton is growing. We added 8,800 souls last year. Our annualized growth rate last year had us growing by 5.5%, the highest in Canada (and the highest of any CMA in the last 20 years). Halifax had the second highest growth rate in Canada last year.

This thread is not about Moncton, but I would like to point out that our industrial parks are growing at such a rate that we are expanding one park, and developing a new park because we are running out of serviceable land to sell to developers. Walmart just officially opened their Atlantic Canadian distribution centre in in the Caledonia Industrial park last week.

To broaden things further, Saint John is doubling their container ports capacity this year and has purchased two new cranes. When all is said and done, SJ will rival Halifax in terms of container capacity. Port Saint John already outperforms Halifax in terms of gross tonnage.

Halifax is not the be all and the end all for Atlantic Canada (nor should it be). I'm fine with Halifax being the regional metropolis, but this does not mean it has to win at absolutely everything.

[q12]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I'm fine with Halifax being the regional metropolis, but this does not mean it has to win at absolutely everything.

I don't think anyone in this thread said anything about Halifax winning at everything. All the things you just mentioned about Saint John or Moncton benefit the region as a whole. Toronto doesn't "win" at everything (especially the Leafs) in Ontario or Montreal doesn't win at everything in Quebec.

I think most people have moved on and accepted that Halifax is and will always be the Regional Metropolis, and have recognized how this can benefit their own part of the Maritimes. Moncton stands to benefit the most being the next closes large urban area to Halifax. Halifax and Moncton both leading the country's growth rate is not a coincident.

It's remarkable how perceptions have changed in the Maritimes since joining this forum over 15 years ago. It seemed like it was non-stop Moncton/Halifax debates that have now all but disappeared.

If you walk into IKEA on the weekend the amount of French speakers from New Brunswick is quite notable. The owners of the Halifax Thunderbirds and Hfx Wanderers have mentioned they have plenty of fans that make the trip from P.E.I. and New Brunswick.

A lot of the new residents who moved to the Maritimes from Ontario or internationally see nothing of it to travel to and from Halifax for some of the amenities they expect in a larger metropolis.

[someone123]

It is a bit funny to say there is an Atlantic corridor or that it's less populated than other regions. The Maritimes are just a fraction of the size of non-Atlantic provinces and the population density there is about 7x higher than Saskatchewan. Newfoundland is culturally similar but not really that connected in any physical sense.

PEI is more than 10x the density of Saskatchewan. While it has a small total population, it's just physically small, and not really a remote hinterland type area but farms and small towns. A lot of people don't understand this.

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

... Gottingen Street is obviously a wholly different situation. It's not a rapid-transit corridor...

The city has several express buses running on Gottingen now - which don't actually stop on the street. It's odd to me... as I think of Gottingen as the "high street" for the neighbourhood, which to me means it should have local service transit, but NOT be used as a thoroughfare for higher-capacity/frequency/speed express busses. Should be lots of stops and frequent service, but careful about the total number of routes using it.

[terrynorthend]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Typical Halifax hubris???

I appreciate your concern for "all Atlantic Canadians", but building up Gottingen means little to a fisherman on Brier Island or a railway worker in Campbellton NB.

Halifax means less to most Maritimers outside of central NS than you seem to think.

I'm in favour of intensifying both Halifax and Moncton and the corridor between the two.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by eastcoastal

The city has several express buses running on Gottingen now - which don't actually stop on the street. It's odd to me... as I think of Gottingen as the "high street" for the neighbourhood, which to me means it should have local service transit, but NOT be used as a thoroughfare for higher-capacity/frequency/speed express busses. Should be lots of stops and frequent service, but careful about the total number of routes using it.

Yes, I was just about to chime in on the subject of the Gottingen bus lanes and some of the subsequent discussion here about tunnels, etc.

As a transit user for many years, it was always baffling why the routes from DT to Dartmouth all went up Gottingen. When the elevated ramp from Barrington to the Macdonald was built buses never used it either, meaning that since most bus traffic used the Macdonald that it all had to go on Gottingen despite the street being (a) ill-suited for such traffic, and (b) often suffering from stop-and-crawl conditions. I suspect but do not know that the elevated ramp is too tight of a turn for buses, or is unable to handle that much weight, but that is speculation. Regardless, it seems another big miss by those responsible for planning that structure.

My belief is that you do not want anything other than local transit serving Gottingen, and that commuter transit should travel on Barrington or Robie once widened. But such seemingly logical decisions often appear to be beyond the capabilities of those responsible.

There was even then a much better alternative in Barrington, but with no connection to the Macdonald it was unusable to transit. Keep in mind the level of thinking that prevailed here from the mid-1950s until the turn of the century - that if you were leaving DT and wanted to get to the Macdonald you had to make a left turn across 2 lanes of oncoming traffic on Barrington, go up Artz St, then right on Brunswick, then right on North St to get to the bridge. That was apparently perfectly acceptable to those in charge of traffic and transit. Fixing that issue never seemed to occur to anyone for over 4 decades.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

To broaden things further, Saint John is doubling their container ports capacity this year and has purchased two new cranes. When all is said and done, SJ will rival Halifax in terms of container capacity. Port Saint John already outperforms Halifax in terms of gross tonnage.
.

I'm not sure I see SJ rivaling Halifax for container capacity any time soon, it has a lot of catching up to do. Port of Halifax has 600,000 containers per year and Saint John has 64,000. I also don't think SJ is able to accommodate the large post panamax ships that Halifax can accommodate. I could be wrong. As for tonnage, it really comes down what the is being tranported through the port. The Straight of Canso actually has the largest tonnage in Atlantic Canada due to the large rock quarry by the Causeway, very heavy to transport but it doesn't make it a busy port.