Carbon Tax Discussions

[bomberjet]

Originally Posted by Riverman

Fortunately, this moronic experiment will be over in October.

Will it though? I'm definitely not voting for Scheer (Trump wannabe authoritarian). I'm also definitely not voting for Trudeau. So who's left? This is a common theme among people I talk to. Just wait until the Liberals are re-elected.

[Stormer]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

See that's the problem. In a fair and efficient market, you cannot effectively lower carbon emissions without a price on carbon, which is a negative externality that comes with a cost to others not involved in the transaction. You cannot believe in a fair and efficient market and want to lower carbon emissions while opposing a price on carbon. This is as fundamental as economics and human behaviour can get.

What do you do about trade exposed industries? Trudeau is just exempting most of them. Unless you get Trump, China and India onside, you are just kissing those industries goodbye.

[NotToScale]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

You cannot believe in a fair and efficient market and want to lower carbon emissions while opposing a price on carbon.

Look, you can believe that, that's fine, I think there are better ways to reduce and curb polluting. I don't believe a tax is the answer.

As I stated already, in keeping the discussion in construction, a focus on building practices can help reduce needs on heating/cooling/electrical, which in turn would help reduce the need on the electrical grid and those big power emitters.

[LilZebra]

Originally Posted by trueviking

Personally I think the carbon tax should be reinvested into green technology and things like transit instead of getting it back but making it revenue neutral is the only way to sell it politically as this discussion points out.

BRT isn't green. Rail, powered by somewhat cheap (and safer than Nuke) Hydro power is.

[Stormer]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

Imported goods should have a tariff applied to them equal to the carbon tax, unless a price on carbon is already included in the cost. Its unfortunate the Liberal government hasn't looked into this seriously yet.

I was also referring to industries that export and have to sell at world prices in competition with sellers from countries without carbon pricing. Examples in Saskatchewan would be agriculture, potash, steel and of course oil.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by Riverman

Everything will be more expensive. There is no tax in history that will impact the poor like this one. Every single thing we eat, buy, want and need comes on a truck. Every single thing will be more expensive.

Okay, here's my attempt to respond to this AND get the conversation back on-track. *ahem* Yes a carbon tax stinks, but it is intended to force a change in behaviour that many people are reluctant to make voluntarily. I would think, however, that the effects of climate change, in the form of violent and unpredictable storms, droughts, fires, etc. have already proven to be hugely more expensive in the form of cancelled airline flights, closed highways, flooded land, etc. It will also cause expense in Winnipeg Construction (IX) through climate-related delays!

There....pretty clever, eh???

[Wigglez]

Originally Posted by pspeid

Okay, here's my attempt to respond to this AND get the conversation back on-track. *ahem* Yes a carbon tax stinks, but it is intended to force a change in behaviour that many people are reluctant to make voluntarily. I would think, however, that the effects of climate change, in the form of violent and unpredictable storms, droughts, fires, etc. have already proven to be hugely more expensive in the form of cancelled airline flights, closed highways, flooded land, etc. It will also cause expense in Winnipeg Construction (IX) through climate-related delays!

There....pretty clever, eh???

eh, I wouldn't put too much effort into trying. Its better to let the anti-vaxx, anti-climate, anti-humanity, anti-science people point themselves out - you can then go ahead and ignore anything/everything they say.

Can't solve stupid with moderation

[LilZebra]

Originally Posted by pspeid

Okay, here's my attempt to respond to this AND get the conversation back on-track. *ahem* Yes a carbon tax stinks, but it is intended to force a change in behaviour that many people are reluctant to make voluntarily.

Turdo giving $12 M corporate welfare cheques to Loblaws (for "freezers") that made a profit of $3 B in the past year doesn't sit very well with a lot of Canadians. Its robbing from the Poor to give more to the Rich.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/search-results/search-ctv-news-7.137?page=0&sortOrder=date&q=Loblaw+%2412+million&fdate=seven_days&ftype=&fpage=2.625


https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/don-...otes-1.4375979

[wardlow]

Originally Posted by EdwardTH

Yeah but a lot of the time being sustainable means just not making a purchase or buying less of something, how do you provide a tax incentive when there's no money being spent? If a guy decides to start walking to work there's no way to reward that... Also getting money back on your taxes is nice but how much does it factor in to the decision the consumer makes at that very moment, knowing they'll get xx% of it back a year later? People look at the sticker price.

As a guy who walks or cycles to work every day, the incentive *is* that there's no money being spent... on gas, on parking, on a second vehicle for the household (if my partner decided to also drive to work instead of walk). Plus the added incentive of exchanging the joys of driving on Winnipeg's smooth roads alongside it's many adept and courteous drivers for boring old exercise and fresh air.

As much of an urbanist nerd as I am, the main reason we both walk to work (and live within ~20 minutes of work in the first place) has little do with Freiburgian car-free ideals, or because we think we live in New York or Tokyo(?!). It has to do mostly with with Manitoban Scotch and Ukrainian thriftiness.

[bomberjet]

I bus to work to avoid paying for parking. I burn 80 litres of fuel in a month, maybe. Not a week. I'm sure I could also reduce that usage if I so desired. More in summer going to the lake of course.
My furnace is an 80's mid-efficient. I could swap that out for high efficiency or go electric next year when we do the change.

I'm also thinking of changing my hot water system to on demand. Our tank is getting old. There are long pipe runs in the house that use a lot of hot water. I'll probably go with small on demand system in the kitchen and a larger one for the 2 baths and laundry on the other side of house.

All that stuff will eliminate a lot of my direct carbon tax costs. Which is the purpose. I would have to pay for those things anyways at renewal time. So why not do something about it.

[PhotoJim]

Originally Posted by LittleBoy

Most people is certainly an overstatement. On a per capita basis, Saskatchewan emits 4x as much CO2 as the USA, Australia, or even Canada as a whole.

Not to justify our level of CO2 emission, but how do we compare to, say, North Dakota? (And their climate is noticeably milder than ours.)

We don't have a lot of hydroelectric production and no nuclear production, and we live in a very cold climate with hot summers, so we are going to use a lot of energy until how we generate electricity changes. (Electric cars, in our climate, are not going to be the solution.)

[Festivus]

The correct answer, of course, is to use the Infinity Gauntlet to travel back in time to stop British, American, and Ukrainian settlers from moving to this prairie hellscape to begin with 120 years ago.

:p

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by Riverman

^ Your hammer and sickle are showing.

Everything will be more expensive. There is no tax in history that will impact the poor like this one. Every single thing we eat, buy, want and need comes on a truck. Every single thing will be more expensive. Will these increased costs be refunded too? Bloody unlikely.

Oh did you forget to mention GST will be charged on top of the carbon tax?

Fortunately, this moronic experiment will be over in October.

Lets hope! Anyone who champions any kind of tax is a moron.

When does China with close to 1.5 Billion people implement their carbon tax?

[Curmudgeon]

^ So if someone drives in from Stonewall do you think they use less or more than 80L per week?, I was just suggesting what the average two person household might use, and that is including use of a vehicle for other transportation needs besides getting to and from work. I don't think I'm far off the mark, perhaps even under estimating. What if you worked in Oak Bluff or St. Norbert? Would you bus it? Well, not if you worked in Oak Bluff, because there is no bus service.

Even with the implementation of the carbon tax, heating by electricity is FAR more expensive at present rates for the typical home, about $500 more per heating season according to Manitoba Hydro. While hydro is not subject to the carbon tax, I think we can be certain that the price for hydro will rise at a rate considerably higher than inflation in coming years, as will items like the basic charge on your bill.

Use foam insulation to wrap your hot water piping to prevent heat loss.

Don't go the lake at all in the summer and just stay home and walk to a nearby park for recreation, you will reduce your carbon footprint. Or cycle to Bird's Hill Park. Going to the lake or the beach is too much to expect isn't it? How many people in India, or even in Europe for that matter, drive 200-300 km round trip to spend a weekend at the lake? It's pretty selfish. In the alternative, take the train, VIA has service to Brereton Lake departing Union Station at 10:30 p.m. on Sundays and Thursdays arriving at midnight. Just walk when you arrive. Also, take only cold showers and use only cold water for laundry and washing dishes, and reduce the number of showers you take and the number of changes of clothing. Just shower once a week and wear the same clothing for a week as well. In the summer months shower in thunderstorms. Rain water is excellent for your hair. Wear an undershirt to keep your shirt clean. Deodorant is not permitted, it is not made in Manitoba and has to be trucked in. Make your own from local products. On other days, just have a quick sponge bath using a litre of cold water in the bathroom sink. That was common practice in the early 20th century. People bathed even less frequently until well into the 19th century. People aren't supposed to smell like chemicals anyways.

Also, buy only local products to reduce your contribution to Canada's overall carbon emissions. There are plenty of food items available to ensure a healthy diet, for example during the winter months you can survive on potatoes, onions, turnips, beets, lentils and eggs, as well as various dairy and meat products. That's exactly what people did in the Red River Colony days, so it should not be difficult. No restaurant meals unless the entire menu is locally sourced.

By the way, is it legal now to keep chickens in the yard? I heard a change to the by-laws was being considered at one point. A goat is a good investment too, a natural lawn mower.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Lets hope! Anyone who champions any kind of tax is a moron.

When does China with close to 1.5 Billion people implement their carbon tax?

Oh come on, have a heart, if Canada can get our share of the world's carbon emissions down from 1.6% to even 1.0%, I'm sure that will put a stop to global warming and climate change. It's the right thing to do, just put on a snowmobile suit at home in the winter.

[bomberjet]

Instead of driving in from Stonewall everyday, get a job in Stonewall or live in Winnipeg? That's a solution. Stonewall is a nice place. I like it there, have numerous family members in town. My mom drives in down Hwy 7 everyday for work. She does not use 80l per week in her car.

We could go on and on. From the way everyone is talking, maybe taking the lead from dear leader Scheer, we will all be dead from lack of money within a very short time frame.

A bigger problem IMO, regular fluctuations in gas prices. More harmful than the carbon tax ever will be.

For clarity, I support neither Trudeau or Scheer.

[TimeFadesAway]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Lets hope! Anyone who champions any kind of tax is a moron.

When does China with close to 1.5 Billion people implement their carbon tax?

They have a cap and trade system already in effect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chines...trading_scheme

[Curmudgeon]

Some use less some use more, I was suggesting 80L a week would represent an average for a two person household. I bet you a contractor would use a lot more than that, or a person commuting from farther away, or a two vehicle household.

The theory of a carbon tax might be sensible, but it is not a good policy for this country at this time. Canada is probably the least efficient developed country, it certainly is the coldest, unless you include Russia. Yes, I guess I'm selfish, I do want a strong national economy and high living standards for the Canadian people. The country can become more efficient without a carbon tax. Plus the worst polluters are subject to the tax on only a small portion of their emissions. Why are a Canadian cities still sprawling? Why are we sustaining a rate of population increase that is not only economically unsustainable but results in increased emissions? I don't want Canada to go down the same path in the 21st century that Argentina did in the 20th, that is going from one of the world's ten wealthiest economies per capita a century ago to 64th today. We're already slipping further and further behind the U.S. which is deeply concerning.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Instead of driving in from Stonewall everyday, get a job in Stonewall or live in Winnipeg? That's a solution. Stonewall is a nice place. I like it there, have numerous family members in town. My mom drives in down Hwy 7 everyday for work. She does not use 80l per week in her car.

We could go on and on. From the way everyone is talking, maybe taking the lead from dear leader Scheer, we will all be dead from lack of money within a very short time frame.

A bigger problem IMO, regular fluctuations in gas prices. More harmful than the carbon tax ever will be.

For clarity, I support neither Trudeau or Scheer.

It was interesting to see how gas prices went up sharply before the carbon tax on gasoline was even implemented and followed by another increase even after the carbon tax was added.

Three cash gouging increases and only one from the govt.

Consumption taxes are never fair!

[bomberjet]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

It was interesting to see how gas prices went up sharply before the carbon tax on gasoline was even implemented and followed by another increase even after the carbon tax was added.

Three cash gouging increases and only one from the govt.

Consumption taxes are never fair!

I'm not an expert on petroleum by any means. But couldn't we build a small local refinery in Manitoba, use the oil from SW and make our own fuel? Cutting out the reliance on global markets? Or would the price be so high it's unsustainable. I would assume this has been well thought out already.

As much as we talk about carbon tax and electrics, gasoline will be around for a long time yet. Relying on Saudis and Russia to control the price of our oil is bullshit.

Also, apologies for getting way off topic.