[Halifax] The Marlstone (1871 Albemarle) | 19 FL | U/C

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

Contrast Scotia Square's struggles with Toronto's Eaton Center, built only 8 years after-- unlike SS, EC was smartly built on the main TTC line and IMHO that's a key reason for its success.

Well, Scotia Square is the downtown transit hub for Metro Transit. It is usually overrun with buses. The problem is that Metro Transit is not very good, is seen as a system of last resort by many, and does not serve nearly the same percentage of daily travelers as the TTC.

As Someone123 said, Eaton Centre in Toronto is a much more welcoming space from street level than SS. Plus it is built on level ground, unlike SS which is poorly designed for any sort of pedestrian access - essentially inaccessible from Barrington, the main mall entrance a small almost invisible area on the side of a steep hill, the backside entrance on Abermarle buried deep into a spooky plaza, and no north side entrance whatsoever. It would be hard to design worse access in reality.

That being said, it was competing at the time of its opening with some very successful shopping centers such as HSC, the Bayers Road Shopping Center, Simpsons, and Penhorn and Kmart in Dartmouth. MicMac opened just a few years later. Tough to compete in a culture where many citizens looked askance at parking garages, and even fewer were willing to pay for parking.

[someone123]

This aerial photo shows where the new tower will fit in:


Source

[Keith P.]

Interesting to me, I have no recollection of Joe's Diner whatsoever. Was it upstairs or in the lower level? Roughly where was it located? I am guessing it must not have been around all that long.

[TheGreenBastard]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Interesting to me, I have no recollection of Joe's Diner whatsoever. Was it upstairs or in the lower level? Roughly where was it located? I am guessing it must not have been around all that long.

Looks like it might be where ScotiaBank is now.

[terrynorthend]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Interesting to me, I have no recollection of Joe's Diner whatsoever. Was it upstairs or in the lower level? Roughly where was it located? I am guessing it must not have been around all that long.

I only remember it from a few shopping expeditions away from my family's normal Dartmouth haunts (Mic Mac, Penhorn, Woodlawn and K-Mart Malls) as a youngster. I think it was second level, but it could have been first level. It was definitely near "centre court", although I am having a hard time trying to visualize how it fits in relative to the fountain (which is gone now, but may not have even been there originally.) It seems like it was right around where the fountain was or just above it on the second floor.

With all the changes and conversion to office space, I have trouble imagining what the original layout of the first level was. I have a pretty good memory of the extent of the second level, and how the cinemas, Woolco and the smaller boutique shops related. The food court was downstairs, kiosks wrapped around a central hub, closer to the Barrington Street wall. Down that main path that now leads from Tim Hortons towards the NSLC, the food court was on the right (east) side and the grocery store and old NSLC were on the left (west) side.

Most of these memories however are from my visits in the mid-80's and onward when I was in high school+. Joe's Diner was gone by then and I believe the mall had changed substantially since I had been visiting as a kid in the 70's

EDIT: I just looked at the photo again, and I guess that is the fountain in the foreground. Assuming it was in roughly the same place as it was most recently then Green Bastard is probably right. Just about where Scotiabank is, although I think Joe's Diner was stand-alone, ie. you could walk all the way around it, rather than a storefront like Scotiabank is now.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Great pic of Joe's Diner. To the best of my recollection, Joe's Diner was where Scotiabank is now, and it was there in the early 1980s. I specifically recall that the '57 Chevy in the diner was only half a car, cut right down the center, and the open side contained a salad bar.

My main stop in the mall was Martime Hobbies and Crafts - upstairs, I believe. I vaguely remember that the mall had been remodelled sometime during the early '80s. I'm having trouble visualizing the exact layout, though it may be just that I didn't spend that much time there since I lived in Dartmouth (went to Mic Mac and Penhorn much more). The mall has changed so much over the years that it is difficult remembering its original configuration without extensive visual references.

I appreciate all the comments from those who remember it well - it brings back a lot of memories.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Great pic of Joe's Diner. To the best of my recollection, Joe's Diner was where Scotiabank is now, and it was there in the early 1980s. I specifically recall that the '57 Chevy in the diner was only half a car, cut right down the center, and the open side contained a salad bar.

My main stop in the mall was Martime Hobbies and Crafts - upstairs, I believe. I vaguely remember that the mall had been remodelled sometime during the early '80s. I'm having trouble visualizing the exact layout, though it may be just that I didn't spend that much time there since I lived in Dartmouth (went to Mic Mac and Penhorn much more). The mall has changed so much over the years that it is difficult remembering its original configuration without extensive visual references.

I appreciate all the comments from those who remember it well - it brings back a lot of memories.

Yeah I have a vivid memory of that car! My dad used to come to Halifax for radiology conference and we used to tag along, and I remember always wanting to go with my mom to the restaurant with the car!

[teddifax]

I always wondered if Scotia Square could be re-engineered/designed. I believe a lot of the equipment for the centre is behind that wall on Barrington St. This complex, as everyone has said, has been so poorly designed with street front access in mind. I don't know if it is possible, but it would be wonderful to open up the whole corner entrance and Barrington St. as well maybe lowering the lower mall level to be level with Barrington St. This probably a dream, but usually, if you can think of something, it can be done. Maybe all the equipment can be relocated within the complex or build underneath street level.

[Ziobrop]

Originally Posted by teddifax

I always wondered if Scotia Square could be re-engineered/designed. I believe a lot of the equipment for the centre is behind that wall on Barrington St. This complex, as everyone has said, has been so poorly designed with street front access in mind. I don't know if it is possible, but it would be wonderful to open up the whole corner entrance and Barrington St. as well maybe lowering the lower mall level to be level with Barrington St. This probably a dream, but usually, if you can think of something, it can be done. Maybe all the equipment can be relocated within the complex or build underneath street level.

Barrington street is the back of the building. The corner entrance on Duke was an afterthought when the city refused to move the transit terminal to market street where it was intended to be.

[teddifax]

I really don't understand what kind of plan exists for Halifax Transit..... why things are built where they are, nothing makes much sense. Bus Terminals built away from Ferry Terminals, in both the Dartmouth and Halifax sides of the harbour. Is it possible (if we were to get our wishes in an ideal world), to re-develop the Halifax side and Bus terminal, along with a rebuilding of the Law Courts site to have a functional Transit terminal, at least in Downtown Halifax? The Dartmouth terminal has unfortunately already been built, so running shuttle buses from the ferry terminal to the transit terminal on a non-stop basis to connect up with buses there, would be a solution (if this isn't already done). The Halifax idea, I believe is doable. The Law Courts building is really not an attractive building and doesn't really fit the property on which it sits. I believe something to be done to make this a much better area. I know it has been mentioned about the Cogswell land redevelopment as an option for the transit terminal but that would perpetuate the problem that already exists. Maybe just rambling here, but I get so frustrated at the running of Halifax Transit. If you build it they will come idea, doesn't necessarily work with Transit. More thought and dollars must be used to make our transit system viable.

[IanWatson]

Well it's pretty easy to see why the bus hub was not built at the ferry terminal. The hub where it is is at the crossing points of a huge number of routes, many of which do not go south into Dartmouth. That extra distance can (each way) be 2 minutes, up to 7 or 8 minutes if traffic is bad. That means 4 to 16 unnecessary minutes added to most of the routes that use that hub.

I think the thing they could do is better coordinate the buses hitting Alderney with the arrival times of the ferries. Then it wouldn't be a big deal to get off the ferry and hop a bus up the hill to the hub.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

I think the thing they could do is better coordinate the buses hitting Alderney with the arrival times of the ferries. Then it wouldn't be a big deal to get off the ferry and hop a bus up the hill to the hub.

That is almost impossible now. I have waited 30 minutes at Queen Square for a bus up to the terminal. It is absurd.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

Well it's pretty easy to see why the bus hub was not built at the ferry terminal. The hub where it is is at the crossing points of a huge number of routes, many of which do not go south into Dartmouth. That extra distance can (each way) be 2 minutes, up to 7 or 8 minutes if traffic is bad. That means 4 to 16 unnecessary minutes added to most of the routes that use that hub.

I think the thing they could do is better coordinate the buses hitting Alderney with the arrival times of the ferries. Then it wouldn't be a big deal to get off the ferry and hop a bus up the hill to the hub.

Your argument cuts the other way as well. There are countless major routes coming from the other direction (Penhorn Mall, Portland Street, Cole Harbour, etc) that have to add extra minutes onto their drive, which could be shortened if they ended their stop at the Ferry Terminal.

Given that one of the central "rapid" transit rides in the City (The Link) begins in Cole Harbour and terminates at Duke, it suggests ridership is actually heavier in that direction.

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

Your argument cuts the other way as well. There are countless major routes coming from the other direction (Penhorn Mall, Portland Street, Cole Harbour, etc) that have to add extra minutes onto their drive, which could be shortened if they ended their stop at the Ferry Terminal.

Given that one of the central "rapid" transit rides in the City (The Link) begins in Cole Harbour and terminates at Duke, it suggests ridership is actually heavier in that direction.

But almost all of those routes continue past Alderney and go up the hill. All of the Portland routes go across the bridge. You're not saving any time by having them stop at Alderney instead of stopping at the bridge.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

But almost all of those routes continue past Alderney and go up the hill. All of the Portland routes go across the bridge. You're not saving any time by having them stop at Alderney instead of stopping at the bridge.

Yes, those particular have to go up the hill, but my point, is that it's worth promoting ferry use (which will lessen the traffic/load going over the bridge) by having routes coming in the other direction go a little further down the hill at a more multi-nodal Alderney terminal. And while the Link and a few others routes coming from Portland go over the bridge, most terminate at the Dartmouth terminal.

[gm_scott]

If they weren't asking for two variances, it would go much faster.

[IanWatson]

Seems reasonable. It'll take a couple of months for the variance process and a couple of more months for the developer to put together construction drawings.

I'm not holding my breath, but it'd be really great if the DRC denied the tower width variance request. Just because this proposed tower is clad in glass doesn't make it any better than other massive slabs that we complain about on Scotia Square.

[Jonovision]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

Seems reasonable. It'll take a couple of months for the variance process and a couple of more months for the developer to put together construction drawings.

I'm not holding my breath, but it'd be really great if the DRC denied the tower width variance request. Just because this proposed tower is clad in glass doesn't make it any better than other massive slabs that we complain about on Scotia Square.

I completely agree. This is now the 3rd or 4th building asking for a width variance which has basically rendered the width requirement in the downtown LUB null and void, since not one of the new towers has adhered to it.

To be perfectly frank I would much rather see the rampart bylaw relaxed or abolished. Give the developers the extra space they need on top, just keep the towers skinny. After all, what is more important. The view a few thousand tourists see a year, and yet no nothing about as it is not discussed outside of the planning realm; or the experience of thousands of pedestrians both local and tourists alike who walk through our downtown everyday.

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by Jonovision

Give the developers the extra space they need on top, just keep the towers skinny.

Thing is, I'm not even sure they NEED the extra space. They had drawings done up and were ready to go with a building that was a fraction of the size. But now we have a situation where in six years of HRMxD, EVERY variance request has been granted. So it's no surprise they're asking for more, because why wouldn't they?

[Jonovision]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

Thing is, I'm not even sure they NEED the extra space. They had drawings done up and were ready to go with a building that was a fraction of the size. But now we have a situation where in six years of HRMxD, EVERY variance request has been granted. So it's no surprise they're asking for more, because why wouldn't they?

A valid point. Let me rephrase "extra space the developers want".

There was one that was not granted. I'm not sure if it made it all the way to the DRC though. There was a proposal for an 8 storey apartment on Artillery Place.