Centre de la Francophonie | Proposed

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

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There is however a strong disconnect between medical, engineering and science programs and the softer liberal arts like sociology, women's studies and political science. These latter programs certainly are hives of communism and anti male rhetoric. These are the programs that tend to give universities bad names (Dal dental school aside).

Eh, no. The liberal arts provide ethical and intellectual guidance for a society, and that's valuable no matter what your profession. Do we want a society full of accountants that can't consider the ethical implications of business, or hospitals full of doctors who can't navigate issues like patients' rights, assisted suicide, etc? The "soft" liberal arts are the original purpose of the university system, in any case. The invasion of job-oriented programs and commerce schools, etc, is relatively recent.

Yes, there IS some degree of leftish ideological extremism in the liberal arts, but they're a lot more diverse than you're giving them credit for. Hell, the chair of the Saint Mary's philosophy department even suggested that taking punitive action against the Dal "gentlemen" would be tantamount to a violation of free speech. Or go over to any university economics department, where you'll find some of the most strident neoliberal thinkers outside of an Ayn Rand tract.

As far as why Ste. Anne would open a Halifax campus, well, most Canadian universities struggling seriously with enrolment and banking on international students and adult learners. If they're looking to recruit internationally, Halifax is a better location than the deep south shore. And if they're looking for adult learners taking part-time education or a few courses here and there, it'll probably help to be where, you know, people are.

I am open to the idea that we don't want to overbuild our university capacity though. Long term student numbers in Canada are probably going to go down regardless of international recruitment, etc., and I feel like a lot of universities (not just in the Maritimes) are addicted to questionable expansion and needlessly overhauling their campuses and buildings. (My alma mater, Ryerson, is terrible for this.)

[Acajack]

Just checking the stats and Nova Scotia has about 35,000 native francophones. This would be your base Acadian population.

It also has just under 100,000 people who can speak French. This would include both native speakers and second-language French speakers (kids of immersion, francophiles, etc.).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I'm not sure what Universite Ste Anne is up to. I certainly hope they are not planning a wholescale move to Halifax. The university (although small) is a very important economic generator and status symbol for the Acadian shore of Nova Scotia. It would be like ripping the heart out of the community if it left.

I suspect they are just planning on setting up a satellite campus for the francophone community in HRM. That would be OK, although I am not sure about the necessity of this. The precedent has already been set. Isn't there a metro campus of Cape Breton University somewhere up in Bayer's Lake??

Part of my family is from the Baie-Ste-Marie area and I would seriously doubt any move for the University out of that region is being planned. They are currently expanding their facilities I believe at Church Point (Pointe-de-l'Église) or at least have done so fairly recently. The institution has done fairly well with private donations to pay for programs and facilities, and I suspect remaining in the Baie region is a condition for at least some of them. Certainly the risk of that drying up is extremely high if they moved lock-stock-and-barrel to the Halifax area.

I believe that in addition to Halifax the university already has small satellite campuses on the other side of Yarmouth to serve Tusket-Pubnico, etc., and at Isle Madame and also Chéticamp on Cape Breton.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I don't think anyone would argue the value of having universities with strong research, technical or professional programs in your city. These are powerful economic generators that contribute greatly to the community.

There is however a strong disconnect between medical, engineering and science programs and the softer liberal arts like sociology, women's studies and political science. These latter programs certainly are hives of communism and anti male rhetoric. These are the programs that tend to give universities bad names (Dal dental school aside).

My point was that making character attacks that are general is an issue, whereas, as I had said, there is no doubt that there are definitely some parts of universities that certainly remain bastions of left (and even right!) wing rhetoric. Identifying specifics for criticism is fair, broadly applying something that all profs are teachers because they couldn't "do" is offensive.

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

... the entire professorial class is generally. ...

Entire does not equal generally.

Originally Posted by Keith P.

... the disaffected left-wing, unable to apply their knowledge in any productive way, so they teach instead, ...

I know, personally, individuals who are regular working contributors to the economy, running companies and doing work, and also teach. Some, you would consider left wing. Others you would consider right wing.

Originally Posted by Keith P.

... ... often to tiny classes ...

I've NEVER been in a class I'd consider tiny. Which, is too bad. I think that large classes are really only suitable for someone presenting (re-presenting) some textbook or theory in front of a passive group of listeners, and doesn't do much for meaningful dialogue and exploration.

Originally Posted by Keith P.

... ..and attempt to shape the impressionable minds of students into other left-wingers. ...

I have no doubt this happens sometimes, but let's not conflate edjamakashun with being a rampant left-wing liberal.

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

... hives of communism and anti male rhetoric. ..

Hives? For real?

Communism? Is this 1950?

I think the argument against going to university to "think" rather than acquire job skills has been stretched a little far here.

[Hali87]

Maybe not communist, but questioning capitalism was certainly a major theme in a lot of my undergrad classes at Dal (not necessarily a bad thing, and probably to be expected - I'm talking mostly about the IDS and Sustainability departments). That said, I think the more widespread, knee-jerk anticapitalist sentiment that exists in Halifax would still exist without the universities. I also don't think it's an inherent feature of universities - I can't see this being a very common attitude at U of Calgary, for example (although it probably varies by department as it does here).

Re: U Ste. Anne, they do already have a small campus in Halifax (down the street from Howe Hall). They also have a campus in downtown Charlottetown, and as such might actually have a distinction as the only Canadian university with campuses in multiple provinces.

I'm not sure what happened to UCB - Bayer's Lake. I do remember the campus but I don't think it's there anymore (they might still have a presence in HRM, not sure)

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Re: U Ste. Anne, they do already have a small campus in Halifax (down the street from Howe Hall). They also have a campus in downtown Charlottetown, and as such might actually have a distinction as the only Canadian university with campuses in multiple provinces.

Nope, I know there are others. For example, the Dalhousie Medicine NB program operates an entire satellite medical school in NB, based out of Saint John but with multiple campuses in SJ, Freddy, Moncton and even Miramichi. There are about 20 Dal medical students and residents at any one time stationed at the Moncton Hospital. Some of these students never set foot in Halifax.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Nope, I know there are others. For example, the Dalhousie Medicine NB program operates an entire satellite medical school in NB, based out of Saint John but with multiple campuses in SJ, Freddy, Moncton and even Miramichi. There are about 20 Dal medical students and residents at any one time stationed at the Moncton Hospital. Some of these students never set foot in Halifax.

It's not really a Dal campus though, right? It's a UNB campus(es) that shares faculty with Dal, I thought. Whereas U Ste-Anne @ Charlottetown is a standalone school, not a partnership where they are using part of UPEI's campus.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Maybe not communist, but questioning capitalism was certainly a major theme in a lot of my undergrad classes at Dal (not necessarily a bad thing, and probably to be expected - I'm talking mostly about the IDS and Sustainability departments). That said, I think the more widespread, knee-jerk anticapitalist sentiment that exists in Halifax would still exist without the universities. I also don't think it's an inherent feature of universities - I can't see this being a very common attitude at U of Calgary, for example (although it probably varies by department as it does here).

I think it is a bit common in academia, to be fair. My experience at Ryerson, U of T, and U of A(lberta) bears out that there's a fair degree of leftism/socialistic leanings on campuses. And McGill/Concordia are the absolute acme of all that, probably in part due to their Quebec context.

Even U of C leans left in poli sci/history etc, though there is a bit of the right-wing western "intellegentisa" hunkered down at that campus, especially in economics and business.

I think that's all probably normal. Liberal thinking tends to correlate with academia, for whatever reason, especially in the liberal arts. That doesn't mean universities are pumping out communists left and right. As long as faculty don't force students to pantomime dogma (and let's be real, most don't, regardless of their personal beliefs) who cares?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Hali87

It's not really a Dal campus though, right? It's a UNB campus(es) that shares faculty with Dal, I thought. Whereas U Ste-Anne @ Charlottetown is a standalone school, not a partnership where they are using part of UPEI's campus.

It is a Dal operated medical school located on the UNBSJ campus. It is a partnership to be sure, but the faculty (including myself) have Dalhousie University appointments, and the medical degrees are awarded from Dalhousie.

I'm sure the arrangement is temporary and that at some point (20-30 years down the road), it will be the UNB School of Medicine, but for the present time it is functionally a Dal campus.

[beyeas]

As I said earlier, citing examples of leftism that exists on campuses, none of which I disagreed with, does not change the fundamental fact that there are massive changes going on at the level of the faculty over the past decade in particular. In fact, the explicit factual examples that I gave of teaching and research programs aimed at commercialization and economic development (note I am not saying that this is uniform across campuses, but that it increasingly exists) counter quite clearly statements like
"Originally Posted by Keith P.: ... the entire professorial class is generally the disaffected left-wing, unable to apply their knowledge in any productive way, so they teach instead..."

Such a statement is factually untrue, not a reflection of reality no matter how many counter examples exist on campus (which they should because education should reflect balance), and frankly is offensive as it is a character slam against those who teach at universities. I don't see why blanket negative stereotypes like what was used by Keith is tolerated on this forum. You want to pick out specific factual examples, go for it. But blanket negative stereotypes are offensive.

[Keith P.]

I don't need to defend my statement. It is demonstrably true and citing the occasional exception changes nothing.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I don't need to defend my statement. It is demonstrably true and citing the occasional exception changes nothing.

Your statement, in your own words, was that the ENTIRE professorial class are unable to apply their knowledge in a productive way. So it is your statement that you feel that there is factual evidence that every single professor at universities in the region are simply people who cannot apply knowledge in a productive way?

If so, provide the proof. It is a simple thing. You state that it is demonstrably true that every professor cannot apply knowledge in a productive way, so give the proof that demonstrates it, since you clearly must have such proof if you are saying that it is "demonstrably true". I gave factual evidence to defend my argument. You now have the chance to give yours. If you can't, then your statement that you do not need to defend it is just hiding while pretending that facts and person opinions are one and the same thing.

Such offensive statements against hundreds of people in this province should not be tolerated or allowed on this board, as it slights the efforts and reputations of hundreds of people. You stating exceptions to that does not make your argument true. If you have no proof of it, then I feel that Someone123 or other review your post.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by beyeas

You stating exceptions to that does not make your argument true. If you have no proof of it, then I feel that Someone123 or other review your post.

Normally I try to avoid messing with stuff unless there are direct personal attacks. I've deleted a couple of posts that got too personal.

Let's also steer clear of the debate about academia, communism, etc. and stick to posting about the project itself. This section is meant for construction project information, not general discussion.

[JET]

Ridiculous statements aren't necessarily offensive. While Keith may be taking issue with the disaffected left wingers, I for one am glad that he is leaving us affected left wingers alone. It is also interesting that some of the posters that are clamoring for posts to be deleted are some of the same folks that say some pretty nasty thing about Heritage Trust. With all the glass buildings around, best to not be chucking the stones around.

I like the idea of a campus in Dartmouth, but not sure if there are any lots of sufficient size. I recall that a number of years ago there was a suggestion to put a college in the then vacant Greenvale School. That would have been interesting.

[Colin May]

I posted the initial article for two reasons, to generate discussion of possible and appropriate locations, and point out what I regard as unnecessary data inflation - a regular practice in the Maritimes which does no good. In the 40+ years years I have lived in Nova Scotia I have seen, read and heard enough puffery to fill a large fleet of airships and like the Hindenburg the great pronouncements went down in the flames of reality.
Unfortunately the explanation provided in the minutes of the October 9 2014 committee meeting are too vague to give meat to the bones of a good project; which may be deliberate, pending a much larger political announcement.

[Keith P.]

If the McNeil govt had any cojones they would announce a rationalization of universities and be done with it. College Ste-Anne would become a satellite of Acadia, CBU would become a satellite of St F.X., and there would be one University of Halifax. That's it.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

If the McNeil govt had any cojones they would announce a rationalization of universities and be done with it. College Ste-Anne would become a satellite of Acadia, CBU would become a satellite of St F.X., and there would be one University of Halifax. That's it.

You think it takes guts to cut university spending? Please. Every government has done it. The NDP government did it for years, stupidly. What takes guts is to cut things Baby Boomers want -- cutting healthcare spending. So if the MacNeil government needs to cut spending and it had "cojones" but also, you know, brains, they'd leave education alone for the younger generation, given the great return it offers on investment, and they'd cut spending on truly costly programs like healthcare.

I'm honestly sick and tired of hearing Baby Boomers and older generations whining about education, university, and post-secondary spending, given that when they were young, they enjoyed the most massive investment and expansion of university/post-secondary education in the history of the world between 1950-1970. Of course now, they scream about waste and support gutting universities because their priority, today, is (shock!) spending money on things that they believe they'll need as they age-- e.g., healthcare.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

You think it takes guts to cut university spending? Please. Every government has done it. The NDP government did it for years, stupidly. What takes guts is to cut things Baby Boomers want -- cutting healthcare spending. So if the MacNeil government needs to cut spending and it had "cojones" but also, you know, brains, they'd leave education alone for the younger generation, given the great return it offers on investment, and they'd cut spending on truly costly programs like healthcare.

I don't know if this study was prepared with any political motivations in mind, but it seems to corroborate that. If you look at Figure 2.6, funding per student was cut every single year between 1990 and 1998. Then it wavered for a while, but according to this it did go up dramatically between 2004 and 2011

But, the kicker is Figure 2.8: NS had, as of 2008, the lowest per-capita student funding in Canada. Even taking into account the increase since then, it's below most provinces. Meanwhile we're subsidizing paper mills and ferries to ensure a few hotels in Yarmouth stay open. It very much looks like a situation in which our governments don't know where our strengths lie (hint: universities, not paper mills.)