Rapid Transit in the Halifax area

[spaustin]

Originally Posted by Hali87

General question; what is the advantage of having LRT in the "middle" of the road, rather than along the shoulders? I realize that this is how it's done most places (C-Train, TTC Streetcars) but ultimately it seems like this would either cost more (because stations have to be more elaborate) or that it would be less safe/convenient for pedestrians (especially if crossings are at-grade).

If you put an LRT in the middle of the road and eliminate left turns, you minimize any potential interaction with cars. In commercial areas like Quinpool or Portland, an LRT built on the sides could have many cars pulling in front of it to turn into businesses, creating delays and, potentially, accidents.

[Nouvellecosse]

Not to mention that it would be very difficult to have on-street parking, and there couldn't be a dedicated ROW since the LRT tracks wouldn't be together.

[Dmajackson]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Not to mention that it would be very difficult to have on-street parking, and there couldn't be a dedicated ROW since the LRT tracks wouldn't be together.

Yep and also for emergencies. If you see sirens behind you its instinct to pull over the right-hands side of the road where the slower traffic usually is. This also applies to accidents and breakdowns.

[Hali87]

Why would you ever need commuter rail or rapid transit to/from Sheet Harbour?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Why would you ever need commuter rail or rapid transit to/from Sheet Harbour?

Well, if HRM were to grow like other major centres, It would expand out and eventually, people would consider it.

In 50 years Calgary went from similar HRM population to over 1 million. In the same time, Edmonton went to 800,000+.

I am sure some people already commute from there. It only makes sense that more people would move there.

So, in 50 years, depending on what the HRM does on a whole, you could have upwards of 1 million.

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I am sure some people already commute from there. It only makes sense that more people would move there.

Warning, joke: It would never make sense for people to move to Sheet Harbour.

End of joke.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

Warning, joke: It would never make sense for people to move to Sheet Harbour.

End of joke.

People DO live in Spryfield....

[Hali87]

Spryfield and Sheet Harbour are very different places. Sheet Harbour is a relatively self-contained industrial town with its own port, well over an hour away from downtown and with very little population near it. Spryfield is pretty much a true bedroom community where most people commute to other parts of the city, is basically adjacent to the Peninsula, and would actually be a very convenient place to live in Halifax terms if transportation connections were better. LRT or BRT serving Spryfield via Northwest Arm Drive would make 1000x more sense to me than any kind of rapid transit (or basically any regular public transit) to Sheet Harbour, now or 50 years from now.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Spryfield and Sheet Harbour are very different places. Sheet Harbour is a relatively self-contained industrial town with its own port, well over an hour away from downtown and with very little population near it. Spryfield is pretty much a true bedroom community where most people commute to other parts of the city, is basically adjacent to the Peninsula, and would actually be a very convenient place to live in Halifax terms if transportation connections were better. LRT or BRT serving Spryfield via Northwest Arm Drive would make 1000x more sense to me than any kind of rapid transit (or basically any regular public transit) to Sheet Harbour, now or 50 years from now.

The other part of the equation for any public transit infrastructure like LRT is the return on investment; specifically what are the opportunities for redevelopment along the line. Calgary's 1 Billion $ West LRT line is a great example - the entire Sunalta neighbourhood is going to see a huge lift because of that station. The Westbrook Station will be a new mixed use community.

With Spryfield - if an LRT was to go down Herring Cove Road - there is great opportunity for the existing auto oriented commercial to redevelop into something more pedestrian focused, mixed use, oriented to the street. The mall out there is a prime opportunity site, plus there are some future greenfield growth areas that if an LRT served them could encourage more than the typical cookie cutter subdivision - you could do something much higher in density oriented around an LRT.

Sheet Harbour doesn't even have a local sewage system if I recall correctly - so density will be limited on what can be served with septic and well; which is very limited density. So the ROI for any major transit investment out there is limited.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Spryfield and Sheet Harbour are very different places. Sheet Harbour is a relatively self-contained industrial town with its own port, well over an hour away from downtown and with very little population near it. Spryfield is pretty much a true bedroom community where most people commute to other parts of the city, is basically adjacent to the Peninsula, and would actually be a very convenient place to live in Halifax terms if transportation connections were better. LRT or BRT serving Spryfield via Northwest Arm Drive would make 1000x more sense to me than any kind of rapid transit (or basically any regular public transit) to Sheet Harbour, now or 50 years from now.

You are assuming I mean right away. once somewhere like Musquoidoibot Harbour gets to the size of Truro, and if it were served by a rail link, then people may look further for some "piece and quiet".

That is how all the smaller communities get bigger.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

You are assuming I mean right away. once somewhere like Musquoidoibot Harbour gets to the size of Truro, and if it were served by a rail link, then people may look further for some "piece and quiet".

That is how all the smaller communities get bigger.

I don't think Musquodoboit Harbour will necessarily ever be the size of Truro. Historically it hasn't been a major growth centre within the HRM and the Regional Plan would see some growth happen there but not much (25% of the pop growth in HRM over the next 2 decades or so is projected to be in rural centres, but distributed among them). Even if MH was the size of Truro, it wouldn't make much sense to me to run commuter rail out there. It would basically be a self-fulfilling prophecy of stretching infrastructure to the point of inefficiency, especially if such a system actively encouraged people to live somewhere like MH but work downtown. IMO this is pretty much exactly the opposite of what we should be doing. The only way it would make sense, to me, is if there were ~ 15 Truro-sized towns along the rail line between downtown and MH.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Hali87

I don't think Musquodoboit Harbour will necessarily ever be the size of Truro. Historically it hasn't been a major growth centre within the HRM and the Regional Plan would see some growth happen there but not much (25% of the pop growth in HRM over the next 2 decades or so is projected to be in rural centres, but distributed among them). Even if MH was the size of Truro, it wouldn't make much sense to me to run commuter rail out there. It would basically be a self-fulfilling prophecy of stretching infrastructure to the point of inefficiency, especially if such a system actively encouraged people to live somewhere like MH but work downtown. IMO this is pretty much exactly the opposite of what we should be doing. The only way it would make sense, to me, is if there were ~ 15 Truro-sized towns along the rail line between downtown and MH.

Right now, I know many people that do commute from Bridgewater, Windsor and Truro.

If the line were to be built only to MH, then you would see more people moving there. They would look at is as a way to get out of the downtown area, yet not have the challenges of getting to work.

Now, once enough people do that. Some people would look at the extra distance to somewhere like SH, and they would move there.

The thing the HRM needs to do is to think. They need to think about how they will grow the city sustainably, and without creating even worse gridlock.

Part of that IS rail transit. Part of it, is, as you said, Truro sized towns.

That will happen if the HMR plans for it.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Right now, I know many people that do commute from Bridgewater, Windsor and Truro.

If the line were to be built only to MH, then you would see more people moving there. They would look at is as a way to get out of the downtown area, yet not have the challenges of getting to work.

Now, once enough people do that. Some people would look at the extra distance to somewhere like SH, and they would move there.

The thing the HRM needs to do is to think. They need to think about how they will grow the city sustainably, and without creating even worse gridlock.

I honestly think commuter rail, in a city of this relatively small size, with tentacles reaching out to genuinely tiny communities, is a bit crazy from a cost perspective, and counterproductive especially when we're trying to densify living patterns.

Far more important is decent transit facilitating convenient movement around the core communities--Halifax, Dartmouth, Bedford, and inner suburbs like Clayton Park.

[xanaxanax]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Right now, I know many people that do commute from Bridgewater, Windsor and Truro.

If the line were to be built only to MH, then you would see more people moving there. They would look at is as a way to get out of the downtown area, yet not have the challenges of getting to work.

Now, once enough people do that. Some people would look at the extra distance to somewhere like SH, and they would move there.

The thing the HRM needs to do is to think. They need to think about how they will grow the city sustainably, and without creating even worse gridlock.

Part of that IS rail transit. Part of it, is, as you said, Truro sized towns.

That will happen if the HMR plans for it.

You can take a train to Truro and back daily if you want

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Right now, I know many people that do commute from Bridgewater, Windsor and Truro.

If the line were to be built only to MH, then you would see more people moving there. They would look at is as a way to get out of the downtown area, yet not have the challenges of getting to work.

Now, once enough people do that. Some people would look at the extra distance to somewhere like SH, and they would move there.

The thing the HRM needs to do is to think. They need to think about how they will grow the city sustainably, and without creating even worse gridlock.

Part of that IS rail transit. Part of it, is, as you said, Truro sized towns.

That will happen if the HMR plans for it.

Encouraging people to move to MH and SH and commute downtown is the opposite of a sustainable way of growing the city.

[hfx_chris]

I wouldn't say we should create disincentives, some people just want to be away from everything and live a more quiet life and they should not be penalized for that. But we certainly shouldn't be adding things like LRT..

[Nouvellecosse]

There's a difference between penalizing something and not subsidizing it. If a person wants something that costs more, then fine, as long as they're willing to pay for it. If they're not willing to pay the true cost then they can choose something else.

[ILoveHalifax]

To me the logical place to improve transit in Halifax would be with some sort of transit line on the peninsula. Spring Garden has so many routes on it that buses line up to get to the stops. I think we are to the point where we should be considering a couple of street car lines to serve the peninsula. The lines coming onto the peninsula should basically terminate when they meet up with the street car lines.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

To me the logical place to improve transit in Halifax would be with some sort of transit line on the peninsula. Spring Garden has so many routes on it that buses line up to get to the stops. I think we are to the point where we should be considering a couple of street car lines to serve the peninsula. The lines coming onto the peninsula should basically terminate when they meet up with the street car lines.

I agree that this seems like a good plan. Ideally, many of the bottlenecks would be avoided with signaling priority and dedicated ROWs (maybe with some tunnels, overpasses, etc.). Suburban service could gradually shift to more BRT-like routes similar to the existing MetroLink service for Dartmouth and Sackville. Commuter rail for the Bedford Highway would also fit in nicely with improved transit on the peninsula.

[hfx_chris]

One thing HRM is doing that I really applaud is attempting to focus more on the Woodside ferry, now that it's operating all day and 15-minutes during rush hour (or at least will switch to 15-minutes once they're done training on the new vessel). The introduction of a couple of express routes (78 Mount Edward Express and 79 Cole Harbour Express) during rush hour should make it really easy to get from eastern Dartmouth and Cole Harbour to downtown Halifax very quickly.