Putting London On The Map

[haljackey]

In addition, London's Wikipedia article is crap. I have no idea how it managed to achieve "Good Article" status. It baffles me. Compare it to the articles of any other major city in Canada and you'll notice the difference.

The article suffers from poor wording, ineffective citations and contains many images that contribute little to the article. I've seen some great pictures here that would significantly aid the article.

As long as the creators are fine with releasing the rights of the photos, get them on Wikipedia!

[ForestryW]

I tried posting another forumer's photo on London's wiki article once (with his permission, and now I can't remember who it was). The wikitators kept deleting it for "copyright violation." I eventually gave up.

[haljackey]

Ya, it's gotta be your own photo or prove you have the rights to upload it.

For example: OTRS. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:OTRS

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I don't know if you need to change the name. Maybe just a catchy slogan, like "London! (no, the other one)".

Westjet advertisement on a bus from last year

Spring 2009 in Vancouver:



And it's my own picture.

[Snark]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

Westjet advertisement on a bus from last year

Spring 2009 in Vancouver:



And it's my own picture.

How about a new advert: London: well at least eight people on one street didn't get shot yesterday (and got away with it).

[Highinthesky]

Originally Posted by Cambridgite

A lot of times they are sent to London or Hamilton. Although with the Grand River Hospital expansion, the UW school of pharmacy, and the AFGA Healthcare headquarters locating in the region, hopefully that's changing.



Anecdotally, that seems to be the only reason a lot of outsiders can imagine why KW is growing. Mostly because it is the least known-about city in Canada. And you guys think you have an identity problem?

But if that were the case, there would be a lot more growth taking place in St. Catharines, Brantford, Peterborough, etc. Barrie is the only other fast growing city that's the same distance from Toronto. Hamilton is 40km closer to Toronto and it is growing at about the same pace as London.

Sorry but I'm just not buying what you're selling. Places like Brantford and St Catharines have been growing very quickly over the past 25 years. Places like Peterborough are a poor comparison due to them being over twice as far away. Hamilton is already a large city which could be contributing to the growth in the KW area. Simple measurement of course can be that if population growth has far our paced job growth in KW then I think it would be fair to say its not all natural growth.

Originally Posted by Highinthesky

Sorry but I'm just not buying what you're selling. Places like Brantford and St Catharines have been growing very quickly over the past 25 years. Places like Peterborough are a poor comparison due to them being over twice as far away. Hamilton is already a large city which could be contributing to the growth in the KW area. Simple measurement of course can be that if population growth has far our paced job growth in KW then I think it would be fair to say its not all natural growth.

No one's forcing you to 'buy' it. Maybe you're one of those people who puts anecdotal evidence above statistical evidence. Suit yourself.

Statistics Canada Community Profiles: Growth rates for 2001-2006 by CMA

http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/prof/92-591/index.cfm?Lang=E

St. Catharines-Niagara: 3.5%
Hamilton: 4.6%
Peterborough: 5.1%
London: 5.1%
Brantford: 5.5%
Kitchener: 8.9%

Peterborough over twice as far? Only if you're mixing up KW with Milton.

Distance from Peterborough to Toronto: 138km in travel distance (1 hour, 45min)

From the bottom of the page, with google maps.
http://distancecalculator.globefeed.com/Canada_Distance_Result.asp?fromplace=Peterborough (Ontario)&toplace=Toronto (Ontario)&fromlat=44.300121277&tolat=43.700113788&fromlng=-78.316233062&tolng=-79.416304194

Distance from Cambridge to Toronto: 95.3 km in travel distance (1 hour and 9 minutes)
Distance from Waterloo to Toronto: 115km in travel distance (1 hour, 29 minutes)

It's longer, but nowhere near "double" as you put it. But of course, 95-115km, with half of it in gridlock, is just a hop, skip, and a jump, right?

As for employment and population growth, I'm not sure where to find the exact number, but the area is well known for its huge growth in high-tech, insurance, logistics, etc. The area is still a net importer of employment.

Even if it was the case that population growth is far outpacing job growth, what is that even evidence of? Mississauga has tens of thousands more people commuting into it than out of it, and it's definitely a suburb.

http://www.mississauga.ca/file/COM/2008LabourandEmployment.pdf

[Simpseatles]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

Westjet advertisement on a bus from last year

Spring 2009 in Vancouver:



And it's my own picture.

Ha! That's awesome!

These direct WestJet flights to Vancouver, Calgary, and Winnipeg must be doing something to help our image across Canada. I hope they continue and our airport prospers so that travelling to and from London is more convienient for Londoners, and so it helps promote us across the country.

[MolsonExport]

Saint Catherines? Growing??? Can these two even end up in the same sentence without the qualifier "not"?

[Northern Light]

Interesting thread.

As someone from the GTA, I've been out to London the odd time, mostly when i had a GF at UWO.

But otherwise as stopover on my way to the U.S.

I has a favourable impression of UWO, nice campus, and of many of the older homes/parks in the downtown.

Enjoyed a few nice meals at the local restaurants too.

But I suppose, I make the case and point, in that w/o some special reason, I probably would not have made the trip out.

***

Pure 'name recognition' and tourism are not one and the same.

Though clearly the former helps the latter. While good tourism experiences certainly don't hurt the former either.

But I think its important to distinguish.

First, let's talk 'name recognition'

I think a lot of people from Toronto (and further afield) do know London, but probably mostly for UWO.

Most have not visited, and don't see the City's name up in lights on a regular basis.

Cities like Hamilton, Niagara, and K-W and smaller centers like Stratford are better known, thought not necessarily top-of-mind.

The reasons are fairly straight forward, I think.

Hamilton is closer, of course, but also has a CFL team and a TV station seen on Basic Cable in Toronto (CHCH); it also has radio stations available to most car radios here, and does have rush-hour commuter train service, along with all-day rail service close by (Aldershot)

K-W similarly has a TV station (though not available on basic cable in Toronto anymore); 2 Universities, some branding from RIM and some commuter traffic.

Niagara has the falls and is a border area, nothing to compete with there, just advantage by nature.

While Stratford is both a leading tourist destination, but has also had a TV show feature its Chef School, and benefits from its postcard looks.

London, to gain notoriety, needs some of those things. That could be getting its existing TV outlet (CFPL) onto to Toronto cable systems or adding a new station (likely CBC). Maybe a TV show set there would help too!

It could be adding some leading tourist facilities. That could be Live theatre of some description, but it could also be a pro sports franchise such as the CFL.

It also requires more tourism....(the chicken-and-egg thing here)

Which, beyond attractions is about the convenience of getting there.

The problem as I see it, is that London (to me) is 3 hours or so away by car.

Too short to take a plane, but too long for a day trip.

I see higher-speed, more frequent rail as the big answer there.

If the train could cut my travel time to under 2 hours (do-able at existing VIA max. speed of 160km p/h, more or less....if only track/signals were upgraded) then day-trips become much more viable, as might attracting commuter students to UWO, particularly from Hamilton/Brantford and K-W.

More frequent service is also key, hourly would work best (every 2 hours via K-W and every 2 hours via Brantford) so that someone in Toronto could get a train every hour from 7am-9pm daily. (14 trains total, compared to six today, I think)

This is also an issue for people from the Detroit area, where there is no longer international rail service. Restoring that (2 trains per day from Chicago) both of which would go through London, would likely boost recognition as well.

***

Once there, my only unfortunate thoughts about London, were the lack of a nice old cinema (its a sort of culture-symbol), last time I visited the Capitol?? was the last one I think, and it was boarded up.

My other reservation was the lack of ways to get around w/o a car. Obviously i brought mine, but I noted no higher-level transit, and my there doesn't seem to be a car-sharing service either. The former of which is planned for both Hamilton and K-W and the latter of which already exists in both.

Otherwise a lovely little place ya have there! Just got to get the name out more.

[Highinthesky]

I agree with what you're saying about getting the word as your own posts is perfect example of the cities failure on that front. There is live theatre in London as you can buy tickets at the Grand Theatre for tonights showing of Joseph and the amazing technicolour dreamcoat.

[manny_santos]

You're not going to get CFPL ('A' London) on cable in Toronto since they already get the 'A' station from Barrie, although you can get the London station on satellite anywhere across Canada.

A better bet is for London to get a CBC TV station, something I have written to the CBC about previously. Other smaller cities with their own CBC stations like Windsor, Regina, Charlottetown, and Halifax get a lot more national media attention, because stories on local newscasts in those regions end up on The National, CBC News Network programming, and other news and current affairs programming. CBC brass have never responded.

[Northern Light]

Its worth noting that CFPL London ("A" London) was CBC London for its first several decades.

But it was always a privately-owned station, and it disaffiliated from CBC in the 90's as I recall.

First bought by Chum to join the City TV group then later integrated into CTV.

I'm sure CBC would love a London presence, the problem is that the cost of a full-set up and local news division likely would not be profitable.

Certainly not a mega-money maker.

The mostly likely way CBC gets back in London is acquiring CFPL from CTV, probably on the cheap. "A" is far less than a national network, and is largely left-over stations that allow CTV to acquire more U.S. programming and find a place for the less lucrative shows. (put another way it allows CTV to keep Global from getting too many U.S. shows that might do OK in the ratings).

While I think that would be beneficial in a small way, its really up-sizing from 1 station to 2 that would add some additional media play (as well as feeding 2 of the National Networks news shows, instead of 1)

[Simpseatles]

Originally Posted by Northern Light

The problem as I see it, is that London (to me) is 3 hours or so away by car.

Too short to take a plane, but too long for a day trip.

I see higher-speed, more frequent rail as the big answer there.

.

3 hours, not day trip worthy! Try telling that to the people like me, who go on day trips to Collingwood for decent skiing in the winter!

Maybe if you live in Oshawa, or Barrie. Day trips from London to Toronto are common, and you can make it downtown in 2 or 2 1/2 hours at the most.

But I can see what your saying, it isn't that convienient and it could be improved with, here we go again, High Speed Rail!

Also, I don't know what the chances are of Porter ever having flights here, but that could help with the Toronto latte sipping condo crowed, looking for an authentic "small town" experiece!

Perhaps another problem with getting our image out is that, although we are at the centre of the economic, and agricultural heartland of Ontario, to anyone else this means absolutely nothing. Sarnia and Windsor have the setting on the border, any place within 100 km of Toronto already has a benefit, and Niagara Falls, well it doesn't need much help with it's image!

Originally Posted by Simpseatles

and Niagara Falls, well it doesn't need much help with it's image!

Obviously you haven't seen anything beyond the falls themselves and the tourist/casino district.

Niagara Falls is a pretty seedy town. Even the locals of Niagara Region see it as such.

[Simpseatles]

Originally Posted by Cambridgite

Obviously you haven't seen anything beyond the falls themselves and the tourist/casino district.

Niagara Falls is a pretty seedy town. Even the locals of Niagara Region see it as such.

Oh no, I am aware that Niagara Falls itself is pretty seedy, it's just that it's obviously much more well known.

[Blitz]

Interesting thoughts about the CBC. I think they would have a very hard time competing in the local news market though against A-Channel (although CBC holds their own against A-Channel in the Windsor market). The other cities you mentioned (Regina, Charlottetown, Halifax) are all capitals and major regional centres probably explaining why CBC is there. In Windsor, CBC attracts a lot of viewers from Metro Detroit especially during Hockey Night in Canada.

[Kokkei Mizu]

Originally Posted by Northern Light

I see higher-speed, more frequent rail as the big answer there.

If the train could cut my travel time to under 2 hours (do-able at existing VIA max. speed of 160km p/h, more or less....if only track/signals were upgraded) then day-trips become much more viable, as might attracting commuter students to UWO, particularly from Hamilton/Brantford and K-W.

More frequent service is also key, hourly would work best (every 2 hours via K-W and every 2 hours via Brantford) so that someone in Toronto could get a train every hour from 7am-9pm daily. (14 trains total, compared to six today, I think)

This is also an issue for people from the Detroit area, where there is no longer international rail service. Restoring that (2 trains per day from Chicago) both of which would go through London, would likely boost recognition as well

VIA isn't doing too badly with service from Toronto - London. The advantage London has is that it has two services both passing through (Toronto - Windsor, Toronto - Sarnia).

In total, 16 VIAs pass through London daily. 3 each direction on the Toronto - Sarnia line and 5 in each direction on the Toronto - Windsor line. Much more than your estimated six.

And the times VIAs pass through London are pretty convenient...

Eastbounds to Toronto:
0500, 0620, 0751, 0800, 1128, 1533, 1931, 2012

Westbounds to Windsor or Sarnia:
0942, 1405, 1410, 1858, 1919, 2045, 2119, 0058

As for travel times, VIA isn't doing too badly here either. On VIA's website, a quick search for one-way from Toronto to London brought up the shortest time of 2 hours and 4 minutes. Sure, high-speed rail would definitely help here, but only by half an hour maybe.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Northern Light

Interesting thread.

As someone from the GTA, I've been out to London the odd time, mostly when i had a GF at UWO.

But otherwise as stopover on my way to the U.S.

I has a favourable impression of UWO, nice campus, and of many of the older homes/parks in the downtown.

Enjoyed a few nice meals at the local restaurants too.

But I suppose, I make the case and point, in that w/o some special reason, I probably would not have made the trip out.

***

Pure 'name recognition' and tourism are not one and the same.

Though clearly the former helps the latter. While good tourism experiences certainly don't hurt the former either.

But I think its important to distinguish.

First, let's talk 'name recognition'

I think a lot of people from Toronto (and further afield) do know London, but probably mostly for UWO.

Most have not visited, and don't see the City's name up in lights on a regular basis.

Cities like Hamilton, Niagara, and K-W and smaller centers like Stratford are better known, thought not necessarily top-of-mind.

The reasons are fairly straight forward, I think.

Hamilton is closer, of course, but also has a CFL team and a TV station seen on Basic Cable in Toronto (CHCH); it also has radio stations available to most car radios here, and does have rush-hour commuter train service, along with all-day rail service close by (Aldershot)

K-W similarly has a TV station (though not available on basic cable in Toronto anymore); 2 Universities, some branding from RIM and some commuter traffic.

Niagara has the falls and is a border area, nothing to compete with there, just advantage by nature.

While Stratford is both a leading tourist destination, but has also had a TV show feature its Chef School, and benefits from its postcard looks.

London, to gain notoriety, needs some of those things. That could be getting its existing TV outlet (CFPL) onto to Toronto cable systems or adding a new station (likely CBC). Maybe a TV show set there would help too!

It could be adding some leading tourist facilities. That could be Live theatre of some description, but it could also be a pro sports franchise such as the CFL.

It also requires more tourism....(the chicken-and-egg thing here)

Which, beyond attractions is about the convenience of getting there.

The problem as I see it, is that London (to me) is 3 hours or so away by car.

Too short to take a plane, but too long for a day trip.

I see higher-speed, more frequent rail as the big answer there.

If the train could cut my travel time to under 2 hours (do-able at existing VIA max. speed of 160km p/h, more or less....if only track/signals were upgraded) then day-trips become much more viable, as might attracting commuter students to UWO, particularly from Hamilton/Brantford and K-W.

More frequent service is also key, hourly would work best (every 2 hours via K-W and every 2 hours via Brantford) so that someone in Toronto could get a train every hour from 7am-9pm daily. (14 trains total, compared to six today, I think)

This is also an issue for people from the Detroit area, where there is no longer international rail service. Restoring that (2 trains per day from Chicago) both of which would go through London, would likely boost recognition as well.

***

Once there, my only unfortunate thoughts about London, were the lack of a nice old cinema (its a sort of culture-symbol), last time I visited the Capitol?? was the last one I think, and it was boarded up.

My other reservation was the lack of ways to get around w/o a car. Obviously i brought mine, but I noted no higher-level transit, and my there doesn't seem to be a car-sharing service either. The former of which is planned for both Hamilton and K-W and the latter of which already exists in both.

Otherwise a lovely little place ya have there! Just got to get the name out more.

Good points, all of them, except to say that Toronto-London is about 2 hours by car, unless you are at the height of rush hour, or if you are travelling from the eastern part of Toronto (e.g., Scarberia) to the northwestern part of London (e.g., Hyde Park and the Dumbcentre).

[DWBrown]

This is what the City of London needs more then anything else. Build the downtown with some much taller highrises and skyscrapers, and that will give it some recognition that London truly deserves.