UPenn Students Create Ambitious plan for NE Corridor High Speed Rail service

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

By calling them that I meant the situations in those places are comparable to the situation in Newark. And they are.

Oh ic , Newark unlike the other 2 is a Major Rail hub. Wilmington and Trenton are minor hubs.

[Cirrus]

Except that Wilmington has more Amtrak passengers, making it more of an Amtrak hub.

At some point I think we need to appreciate the difference between objectivity and home town boosterism.

[gttx]

The plan calls for 4 different levels of service, from an express train that only stops in the biggest cities all the way down to a "local" service that could essentially be used as high-speed commuter service (of course, you would probably take this local train to the nearest hub to catch the express train). It's worth noting that having all these different types of service would be nearly impossible on the current NEC infrastructure, given its capacity constraints - another reason for the 2 new dedicated tracks.

Also, as a co-author of this plan, I'm happy to see the discussion it has generated. A lot of valid points have been raised, particularly concerning the Long Island route. I will just say that a major part of this planning effort was about getting people to start talking - about the plan, about HSR, and particularly about how to get HSR in the Northeast. Simply proposing the Amtrak Masterplan with a few minor changes wouldn't have accomplished that.

Anyway, I'm happy to answer any questions that people have. The comments so far have been very helpful!

[theWatusi]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

BTW its not Trenton & Wilmington Penn stations. The Trenton Transit Center and Wilmington Station.

Well, actually one could accurately call both of those "Penn Station" seeing as they were both built by the Pennsylvania Railroad.

[Snoshredder21]

I agree with using Newark Penn Station. The City of Newark has almost every NJ Transit Line in the state, along with Path, the airport, etc. Its too important to leave out.

[tigernar]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

Just straighten the NEC and add 2 dedicated tracks for True HSR and you'll be fine. Theres no reason to build a New NEC......why would you go onto LI? The NIMBY's would kill the project on announcement. As for the CT alignment Amtrak has plans to electrify and upgrade the New Haven - Springfield Corridor and Springfield - Boston Corridor. So in a way that becomes a New NEC , its really a new Trunk system for New England to build off of. 90% of it will be grade separated form what i'm told. This has to many stations like some have said , some of those stations are covered by the LIRR & other systems. Most NEC stations with the exception of NYC , Boston and DC have alot of spar capacity left. Cities centers should be best left for Transit hubs , Not HSR stations....

HSR stations should be located near or in the city centre, not outside the towns. The French have tried the latter option for their few "in-between-stops" and it has not worked at all. Brian D. Sands wrote about this in his report "Development Effects of High-Speed Rail Stations and Implications for California". Transit hubs should ideally be located near or at high speed rail stations or other long distance transport modes (maybe except for airports).

[kilbride102]

High speed rail is a direct competitor of air travel and should be designed to aaccomplish that goal. Major Hubs only eg: Boston, NY, Philly, Balt, DC with direct trains to really shrink travel times. You could eliminate air travel between these cities with real high speed rail. This would have enornmous benefits for the environment and faster air service for international and long distance flights.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by kilbride102

High speed rail is a direct competitor of air travel and should be designed to aaccomplish that goal. Major Hubs only eg: Boston, NY, Philly, Balt, DC with direct trains to really shrink travel times. You could eliminate air travel between these cities with real high speed rail. This would have enornmous benefits for the environment and faster air service for international and long distance flights.

A mixture of local and express trains is best. Express for those to directly compete with airlines, local to allow access to smaller cities that airlines do not serve.

For example, on the NEC:

NEC Express: Washington, Baltimore, Philadelphia, New York, Boston (or some trips perhaps directly between pairs, i.e. Washington-NYC, Washington-Philadelphia, Baltimore-NYC, Washington-Boston, if ridership warrants)

NEC Local: Washington, BWI Airport, Baltimore, Wilmington, Philadelphia, Trenton, Newark NJ, New York, Stamford, New Haven, New London, Providence, Westwood, Boston

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

A mixture of local and express trains is best. Express for those to directly compete with airlines, local to allow access to smaller cities that airlines do not serve.

For example, on the NEC:

NEC Express: Washington, Baltimore, Philadelphia, New York, Boston (or some trips perhaps directly between pairs, i.e. Washington-NYC, Washington-Philadelphia, Baltimore-NYC, Washington-Boston, if ridership warrants)

NEC Local: Washington, BWI Airport, Baltimore, Wilmington, Philadelphia, Trenton, Newark NJ, New York, Stamford, New Haven, New London, Providence, Westwood, Boston

You can't skip Newark its to import of a Rail JCT city to skip and you can't go fast through the station anyway. Max is 40mph. Amtrak Acela Service does not stop at Trenton or New London , Amtrak regional does.

[Wrightguy0]

i don't see the need for the LI branch the way they have it, a 19 mile tunnel is too costly, you can achieve the same thing at throgs neck and link up to JFK from there, and the only reason for the system to run on LI is to make it easier to align the network with Penn Station, and yes, a connection to 30th street station is a better choice for Philadelphia

[Jasonhouse]

Originally Posted by Wrightguy0

i don't see the need for the LI branch the way they have it, a 19 mile tunnel is too costly, you can achieve the same thing at throgs neck and link up to JFK from there, and the only reason for the system to run on LI is to make it easier to align the network with Penn Station, and yes, a connection to 30th street station is a better choice for Philadelphia

Their research proves that the tunnels in Philly and NYC aren't too costly, because the time benefit is so great.

[Jasonhouse]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

Cities centers should be best left for Transit hubs , Not HSR stations....

I honestly can't believe I just read that.

Umm, why don't you think that having HSR stop at a city's main transit hub is the most efficient way to tie HSR to that city's transit network?

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

You can't skip Newark its to import of a Rail JCT city to skip and you can't go fast through the station anyway. Max is 40mph. Amtrak Acela Service does not stop at Trenton or New London , Amtrak regional does.

Given the importance of those stops and longer distance between stations, they should be added to NEC Local (current Acela Express) if an Express option is added, since the really fast trips would use Express. 1 or 2 others could be as well if the time difference between commuter rail and that service is considerable.

Northeast Regional should be replaced by more frequent extensions of existing commuter rail I think (with partial Amtrak funding) as they duplicate each other in most cases.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by Jasonhouse

Their research proves that the tunnels in Philly and NYC aren't too costly, because the time benefit is so great.

Originally Posted by Jasonhouse

I honestly can't believe I just read that.

Umm, why don't you think that having HSR stop at a city's main transit hub is the most efficient way to tie HSR to that city's transit network?

Well HSR can share the Transit Hub like it does in Philly , Newark , Baltimore , DC , NYC, Boston.

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Given the importance of those stops and longer distance between stations, they should be added to NEC Local (current Acela Express) if an Express option is added, since the really fast trips would use Express. 1 or 2 others could be as well if the time difference between commuter rail and that service is considerable.

Northeast Regional should be replaced by more frequent extensions of existing commuter rail I think (with partial Amtrak funding) as they duplicate each other in most cases.

There is no NEC local , there are commuter trains for that. Acela Express does the Major Cities and Job hubs like DC , BWI , Baltimore , Wilmington , 30th street , Metropark , Newark , NYC , Stamford , New Haven , Providence ,Route 128 , Back bay and south station. Although they should get rid of BWI airport , Metropark , Stamford , Route 128 and Back Bay stations , Amtrak regional is enough to serve those. Amtrak regional and Vermonter serve the rest of the stations between DC and Boston. Between 10-6am Amtrak regional does stop at some local commuter stations. Northeast regional does not need to be replaced by a commuter rail line , seeing that it only stops at the other stations that the Acela doesn't.

[Marv95]

I get where Cirrus is coming from kinda, but if you're gonna skip Newark, Wilmington and Richmond, you have to skip Providence and Hartford as well.

[Cirrus]

No you don't, because there are not other close-by options for those cities. Without them you'd be talking about non-stop service between NYC and Boston, which is neither necessary nor advisable given the population density of New England.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

No you don't, because there are not other close-by options for those cities. Without them you'd be talking about non-stop service between NYC and Boston, which is neither necessary nor advisable given the population density of New England.

But NYC is at Capacity and confusing to use , its not like DC or Boston or Philly. Newark is NJ's , NY Penn station. So it makes sense to stop there , + you can't go that fast even if you upgraded the NEC between NYC and south of Newark. Max is 90mph , building a separate ROW Won't happen due to the limited space and NJT expansions.

[Cirrus]

I'm not arguing with a dedicated homer about this any more.

[theWatusi]

The estimated travel time between Philly and NY is 40 minutes according to the OP.

A stop in Newark would add at least 15 minutes to this time, a 30%+ increase. This is unacceptable for true HSR.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by theWatusi

The estimated travel time between Philly and NY is 40 minutes according to the OP.

A stop in Newark would add at least 15 minutes to this time, a 30%+ increase. This is unacceptable for true HSR.

Well if you can't stop in Newark , your severely limited by speed , there is no place for New tracks. Although NJT seems to be wanting to bypass Newark via a CSX line for trains going to Hoboken form the Raritan Valley line. Amtrak could build a flyover onto that line to bypass Newark , but shares with freight , although you can add tracks to that line very easily.