Should spires be counted in official height?

[DTAustin]

Originally Posted by hookem

A crown and a spire are both non-functional (except for antannae, etc), non occupied decorative items... Frost's crown does look very much like part of the building, but many don't. They are the same in my opinion.

Spires are more traditional -- think Empire State, Chrysler building. They can definitely be an integral part of the overall perceived height/look of a building. But again, sometimes they are done well, other times they are just a pole at the top of a building.

Again, only my opinion, but I happen to think 360's is done pretty well. It's not overbearing considering how tall the building is. The base is good, and it's got an asymetrical feature mirroring it at the back of the roof. It's really quite nice for what it is.

The crown on the Frost could be considered more functional than the spire on 360. Most of the mechanical equipment for Frost is hidden within the crown. Nothing, other than a few antenna, can be placed on the the spire.

I think the Frost tower is amazing. It's such a chameleon. It looks very different depending on the angle, time of day and lighting conditions. At times it blends in with the clouds and at other times it totally stands out.

[G Lee]

I think the average person would think of Frost's crown as part of the building but would say 360 has a flag pole on it.
I personally care more about highest occupied floor.

[Mopacs]

For whatever its worth, the current portion of the spire is clearly visible as far away as Mopac @ 183. Visibility should improve further once the glass is in place. Having said that, the Frost crown is certainly more impactful. Also, doubt that the upper 'flagpole' will be visible beyond the immediate downtown area (unless there is a light at the top).

[zx14]

How abut this. Why not consider the spire of 360 into the total height but not the flag pole just the part that will be visible from a distance with glass on it. That would still make it 533 feet. Correct me if i am wrong but that is how they kind of measure the Empire State Building. Regardless the Austonian will put all this to rest because it will not have a tall crown or spire.

[ydoc14]

I think spires should count only if they give "visual" height to the building. Sorry 360 and Marriott Rivercenter

[Gallup]

Originally Posted by hookem

A crown and a spire are both non-functional (except for antannae, etc), non occupied decorative items... Frost's crown does look very much like part of the building, but many don't. They are the same in my opinion.

Spires are more traditional -- think Empire State, Chrysler building. They can definitely be an integral part of the overall perceived height/look of a building. But again, sometimes they are done well, other times they are just a pole at the top of a building.

Again, only my opinion, but I happen to think 360's is done pretty well. It's not overbearing considering how tall the building is. The base is good, and it's got an asymetrical feature mirroring it at the back of the roof. It's really quite nice for what it is.

Well said. Not to mention the fact that we are judging 360’s spire before it is even complete. What if a day into the Mona Lisa someone said “hey Da Vinci, you suck, what’s with that ugly chic?” Crude yes, but think about it, the spire is half built, naked, and is yet to be illuminated. When we view this building from anywhere south of 2nd at night its spire will blend with the column of lights that run up its south side so well that I think it will be a real treat for all who see it. We are comparing a boy to a man, give 360 time to grow into its body and then judge. Truthfully, I can’t think of a better top for 360. Same for Frosty, its top fits it perfectly. But to say that the 33 story building should be considered taller than the 44 story building, when it isn’t in any way, seems odd at best.

[KevinFromTexas]

I moved these posts out of the Austin compilation thread to their own thread.

First of all, here are the stats on 360 and Frost Bank Tower.

360 Condominiums - 563 feet - 44 floors - 2008

The following is a quote from an email I got from Andrews Urban, which is one of the developers of 360.

For the tower itself - 562'-9 1/2" (From lobby to Top of Spire)

To the main roof - 461'-11" (Top of slab @ 43rd floor)

To the base of the spire - 473'-4" (Top of slab @ 45th floor)

Of the highest occupied floor - 462'-1" (Top of slab @ Upper Penthouse on
44th floor)

So, from those heights:

562 feet 9 1/2 inches to the top of the spire (563 feet rounded up).
473 feet 4 inches to top of the slab at the 45th floor. This would be the sloped concrete part of the roof just below the spire.
462 feet 1 inch. This is the highest occupied floor (44th floor).
461 feet 11 inches to the main roof (top of slab at the 43rd floor).

Now the heights for the Frost Bank Tower. These heights came from Cousins Properties the developer of the tower. The heights came from the blueprints.

Frost Bank Tower - 515 feet - 33 floors - 2004

515 feet 9 inches to the top of the crown.
442 feet 9 inches to the top of the mechanical penthouse (hidden inside the crown).
424 feet to the highest part of the main roof. The main roof slopes downward from the penthouse. To the edge of the (the drop) the main roof is 415 feet above the street. The main roof of the Frost Bank Tower is also hidden inside the crown. The crown actually stands atop both the mechanical penthouse and the main roof with its structural steel being anchored to those surfaces.
400 feet to the highest occupied floor (33rd floor).

So, while the Frost Bank Tower officially has a higher roof than 360 does, 360 still has the highest floor. 360's top floor, (44th floor) is 62 feet higher than Frost's highest floor (33rd floor). Also officially spires are included in overall heights, so 360 is officially taller than the Frost Bank Tower.

Something to think about, even if you took the spire off of 360 and the crown off of Frost, 360 would still be taller than Frost in two categories, to the roof, and highest occupied floor. 360 would be 30 feet taller than Frost even then, and it's highest floor is 62 feet higher than Frost's. The only thing that makes 360 and Frost even, or close to it, is that 360's block is 20 feet lower in elevation than Frost's block.

Officially spires are included in heights since they are designed by an architect as part of the building.

Someone had asked why the Tower of the Americas in San Antonio which is 622 feet to the roof and 750 feet to the antenna isn't officially listed as 750 feet. This is because the antenna isn't part of the tower's design. Rather than being a spire that the architect designed, it's an antenna that's used for communication.

While 360 is tall, and in my opinion is a great new tallest, I have to admit Frost Bank Tower will likely have a larger impact than 360 will simply because it has the higher roof. I live here in South Austin and we have a view of both buildings in our neighborhood. We can see both during the day, but at night the Frost Bank Tower, at least for now, is showing up much more impressively than 360 is. That may change once 360's lights come on, but I get the feeling Frost will still be king of that view. Both buildings do pop up together in places where before Frost was built there was no skyline view.

Frost Bank Tower is just a favorite of mine, I'll probably always have a certain feeling for it that screams "tallest" even though I wish it had been taller. 360 though is really growing on me and I think will make a nice tallest building, at least for a while until it doesn't hold that title anymore.

As for spires, officially I'd say count them since they were designed by the architect. Imagine if there was some rule that said spires were only included in the overall height based on how much they stood out. Just imagine buildings with flashy spires or else fat ones or freakishly tall ones trying to get your attention.

I've always been neutral on the subject of spires with a nod towards including their height. Now that Austin finally has a building with a spire, I haven't really changed my opinion of it.

If we didn't count spires officially there would be a lot of famous skyscrapers just here in the US that would drop in the height ranking such as the Chrysler Building and others.

[hookem]

While 360 is tall, and in my opinion is a great new tallest, I have to admit Frost Bank Tower will likely have a larger impact than 360 will simply because it has the higher roof.

Surely I'm just missing something, but how exactly does Frost have the higher roof? Of all the numbers you posted, the only one where Frost is above any of the 360 numbers is this one:

Frost Bank Tower - 515 feet - 33 floors - 2004

515 feet 9 inches to the top of the crown.

How can the two tips of the Frost crown be considered a roof?

Or are you taking into account the elevation differences in the sites, and talking about roof height from sea level?