NEW YORK | LaGuardia Airport Redevelopment

[fleonzo]

I HATE flying out of and into La Guardia...it's perhaps one of the worst airports I've ever been to including the ones in Guatemala and El Salvador! The main complaint I have with JFK is the DAMN Van Wick Expy which is always a mess!!!

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by fleonzo

I HATE flying out of and into La Guardia...it's perhaps one of the worst airports I've ever been to including the ones in Guatemala and El Salvador! The main complaint I have with JFK is the DAMN Van Wick Expy which is always a mess!!!

Take the Airtrain out of JFK, and no headache.

A clip I took in November.


• Video Link

[vkristof]

Originally Posted by NYguy

http://nypost.com/2014/01/08/gov-cuo...wark-airports/

Gov. Cuomo to call for state control of JFK, LaGuardia airports


By Tara Palmeri
January 8, 2014







http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...07101948275962

New La Guardia Terminal Poses Stress Test
Many Have Long Wanted a Replacement for La Guardia Airport's Central Terminal Building and Now May Get It


By Ted Mann
Jan. 7, 2014

Thanks for the links.

Personally, I see this as an above-ground version of the MTA/LIRR Eeast Side Access.
Namely a complicated project in a dense area that is run by a state agency/authority/whatever that comes in years late and over budget. Hopefully not as overbudget as LIRR ESA, since LGA is NOT going underground significantly.

PS: the concept (I don't any facts) of an underground heavy rail/subway terminal at LGA under the new terminal gives me the willies from the standpoint of groundwater control

[k1052]

Just extend AirTrain from Jamaica to LGA and call it a day for rail access. Astoria is never going to let the N get extended.

Nobody is going to complain about the expenditure since it would be mostly PA money and everyone likes JFK AirTrain already.

[drumz0rz]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Agreed. As for the prelim schematic showing a possible heavy rail allignment, I must say I wish they would plan and build ahead of time a subterranean station in the lowest level,of the terminal and a future connection could tunnel under the GC and be completely climate controlled. Who wants to arrive at LGA in the winter with their fine luggage and stand at a windswept elevated platform? All that should be inside the terminal itself and that has to be planned for NOW.

Building a subway would be extremely expensive and would come with many technical challenges including the fact that LGA sits on the water with a very shallow water table. During Sandy there was a foot of standing water covering the airport. Imagine what that would do to a subway.

An elevated light rail like the AirTrain is the ideal solution. I'd imagine even if the platform was disconnected from the terminal building, they would employ platform screen doors - glass walls - to keep the platform insulated and climate controlled.

[BBMW]

I don't know why they aren't looking at major air side changes. This would make things much more efficient both at LGA and JFK.

They should get rid of the 4-22 runway, and add another 13-31. This way they can use both runways at full capacity simultaneously. Also the runway 4 approach can interfere with the use of the 13 runways a JFK.

Getting rid of 4-22 would also free up a lot of land at it's 22 end (near the Grand Central Parkway.) This would be a good place to move the terminal complex. Demoing the old terminals would free up the land to build the new 13-31 runway (what would be 13L-31R.) They should also add some landfill or build platforms to extend the runways a few thousand feet. As they are they're too short.

BTW, shouldn't this thread be in the transportation forum?

[Submariner]

Originally Posted by NYguy

Take the Airtrain out of JFK, and no headache.

A clip I took in November.


• Video Link

The only problem is, the Jamaica subway platform is a s**thole.

It would be interesting if they could have Air Train cars that ran on existing subway lines from GCT or Penn to Jamaica Station and from there, continue service along the elevate portion as normal. There should be a quick, no-transfer way to get from JFK to Manhattan. Many cities (especially in Asia) are doing this and it's quite a nice experience. Naturally, there are logistics I am not considering (or don't even understand) but it would probably be much cheaper than say, building a dedicated link from Manhattan to JFK.

The other thing to consider is that many foreign travelers are accustomed to (or might desire) a better link between JFK and Manhattan. It would be a selling point for some companies to advertise "quick, simple, direct" transportation from JFK to Manhattan, especially on a dedicate train that is a bit nicer than a typical subway car.

[k1052]

Originally Posted by Submariner

The only problem is, the Jamaica subway platform is a s**thole.

It would be interesting if they could have Air Train cars that ran on existing subway lines from GCT or Penn to Jamaica Station and from there, continue service along the elevate portion as normal. There should be a quick, no-transfer way to get from JFK to Manhattan. Many cities (especially in Asia) are doing this and it's quite a nice experience. Naturally, there are logistics I am not considering (or don't even understand) but it would probably be much cheaper than say, building a dedicated link from Manhattan to JFK.

The other thing to consider is that many foreign travelers are accustomed to (or might desire) a better link between JFK and Manhattan. It would be a selling point for some companies to advertise "quick, simple, direct" transportation from JFK to Manhattan, especially on a dedicate train that is a bit nicer than a typical subway car.

The AirTrain ROW was designed to be compatible with a to be built hybrid car that would be compatible with LIRR. Designing such a car and doing the ROW work to connect both airports to the LIRR would cost a pretty penny that neither the MTA or the PA remotely wants to part with.

Given the demands already upon NYCT, dedicated subway trains (of questionable practicality) are pretty much a non-starter. LIRR will have lots of frequency out of both sides of midtown when the ESA opens. I'd prefer the PA generally focus on rebuilding it's dilapidated airports and doing so quickly.

[drumz0rz]

Originally Posted by BBMW

I don't know why they aren't looking at major air side changes. This would make things much more efficient both at LGA and JFK.

They should get rid of the 4-22 runway, and add another 13-31. This way they can use both runways at full capacity simultaneously. Also the runway 4 approach can interfere with the use of the 13 runways a JFK.

Getting rid of 4-22 would also free up a lot of land at it's 22 end (near the Grand Central Parkway.) This would be a good place to move the terminal complex. Demoing the old terminals would free up the land to build the new 13-31 runway (what would be 13L-31R.) They should also add some landfill or build platforms to extend the runways a few thousand feet. As they are they're too short.

It's an interesting proposal, however short of the existing runway 13-31, you're pretty much razing and rebuilding the entire LaGuardia Airport which would cost a fortune and just isn't feasible.

Going with your idea though, you could move the Marine Air Terminal into the corner currently occupied by Delta, and build a sort of checkmark shaped set of terminals with parking structure filling in the current end of runway 4-22.

Like you said, you could easily extend both the existing 13-31 and new 13-31 to accommodate larger aircraft.

It would be interesting trying to squeeze in parallel approaches though considering the current approach to 31 is already very tight to appease NIMBYs.

[BBMW]

They're already planning to build a new terminal. I'm just making it bigger (to replace all the terminals (not just the main terminal.) My main addition is removing and replacing a runway. The airport could be kept open while all this is happening. For some time, it may have to go down to one runway. The length of this period could be kept fairly short.

Doing this not only untangles LGA (the crossing runways limiting their simultaneous use), but also untangles JFK from LGA. The increase operating rates would generate significant revenue.

Originally Posted by drumz0rz

It's an interesting proposal, however short of the existing runway 13-31, you're pretty much razing and rebuilding the entire LaGuardia Airport which would cost a fortune and just isn't feasible.

Going with your idea though, you could move the Marine Air Terminal into the corner currently occupied by Delta, and build a sort of checkmark shaped set of terminals with parking structure filling in the current end of runway 4-22.

Like you said, you could easily extend both the existing 13-31 and new 13-31 to accommodate larger aircraft.

It would be interesting trying to squeeze in parallel approaches though considering the current approach to 31 is already very tight to appease NIMBYs.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by k1052

Just extend AirTrain from Jamaica to LGA and call it a day for rail access. Astoria is never going to let the N get extended.

Nobody is going to complain about the expenditure since it would be mostly PA money and everyone likes JFK AirTrain already.

not everybody likes the airtrain -- the shuttlebusses were free and now you have to pay for the airtrain. also, its more expensive than a subway ride, so it doesnt accept monthly metrocards. boo and hiss!

[k1052]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

not everybody likes the airtrain -- the shuttlebusses were free and now you have to pay for the airtrain. also, its more expensive than a subway ride, so it doesnt accept monthly metrocards. boo and hiss!

You seriously want to go back to shuttle busses?

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by k1052

You seriously want to go back to shuttle busses?

i seriously want to go back to free. or at least match the cost of a subway ride. not to mention, the airtrain doesn't make much better time than the busses did.

[antinimby]

Dude, it costs billions to build and millions to operate and maintain. They can't let people ride for free.

Even subway fares are/will be going up, too.

[k1052]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

i seriously want to go back to free. or at least match the cost of a subway ride. not to mention, the airtrain doesn't make much better time than the busses did.

AirTrain is faster and FAR more pleasant than the shuttle buses. Hell, Chicago recently instituted double pricing for entering the CTA system at the airport and we didn't even get anything new for it.

I wold be overjoyed to see AirTrain extended to LGA. I book into JFK because of the transport options, often at a hefty premium to going into LGA.

[M. Incandenza]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

i seriously want to go back to free. or at least match the cost of a subway ride. not to mention, the airtrain doesn't make much better time than the busses did.

It wouldn't be free; the cost would just be borne as taxes. And since it would be a eservice used mainly be a segment of the population (airline passengers) that skews wealthy, it would amount to a subsidy for better-off folks.

[BBMW]

They should just make a spur off the N line at at Astoria Blvd, that runs over the Grand Central Parkway into LGA. I'd run another train on that line that goes to LGA and not Ditmars.

I thought of this years ago, but just recently saw something about this on Curbed.

[BBMW]

Apparently our beloved vice president is not a fan of LGA

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/poli...icle-1.1604900

[k1052]

Originally Posted by BBMW

They should just make a spur off the N line at at Astoria Blvd, that runs over the Grand Central Parkway into LGA. I'd run another train on that line that goes to LGA and not Ditmars.

I thought of this years ago, but just recently saw something about this on Curbed.

Substantial flyover infrastructure would need to be created and the Astoria Blvd station probably relocated. Ideas that would go over like a lead balloon.

[BBMW]

No. The El would have to be widened a bit south the station, and it would have to be double decked over the station. It could then be split out over the station and Astoria and Hoyt Aves (there a little triangle there that would give right of way), and taken out over the Grand Central. The LGA trains would not stop at the Astoria Blvd station.

It would be the normal construction nightmare for a project of this magnitude. But being someone who's living through the Second Ave Subway construction, there are some thing you just have to put up with.

It could be done, and it would impact few enough people that it could get passed.

Originally Posted by k1052

Substantial flyover infrastructure would need to be created and the Astoria Blvd station probably relocated. Ideas that would go over like a lead balloon.