Boise Transportation Thread

[Hawk]

Originally Posted by BoiseAirport

In class at the moment, so can't post a lot, but just saw in IBR an article about the Airport accepting architectural proposals for the parking garage expansion.... Finally, about time this thing gets done!! Damn NIMBYs.

I wonder how large the extension is going to be

[isangpogi]

By a google search, it looks like SeaPort is flying only three daily's into IDA Monday through Friday... Only one flight on Saturday and no Sunday service. Does anyone know if this represent a reduction in service from what it originally was? I seem to recall them doing something like 5 flights a day at first? Also, why on earth to they fly to Pendleton? Is there really a demand or it just a logistical move by the airline to move the planes around?

On the Idaho Falls forum, IFguy seems to have some intel on a possible route to Hawaii opening up. Does anyone know anything about the likelihood of that? It would almost certainly be on Allegiant but it seems crazy that IF would get Hawaii service before we would.

BTW, a cool tool I found for searching for flight info is in google. Just type in "flights to [airport code]" into Google. It pops up with a list of all nonstop routes and the airline serving the route. Click on the destination and it brings up a timetable. The "flights from" command also works.

[Cottonwood]

I have thought the same regarding the flight to Pendelton.

[boi2socal]

Originally Posted by Cottonwood

I have thought the same regarding the flight to Pendelton.

Just to move their planes around. And they have reduced service from their initial service amount. Not really surprising though.

Allegiant tends to fly places without much service. While it seems strange IF would get HI service and Boise would not, Boise has nearly endless easy connections to HI, Idaho Falls not so much. I doubt that service will last if implemented. They also have a reputation of quickly ending service when it doesn't work out.

[Evo5Boise]

I'm all for the green bike lanes as well. Very cool!

[BoiseAirport]

Paul Cunningham, current Boise Airport President, said today at the annual economic forum that we may have non-stop air service to Hawaii soon.

Very interesting comment. The only two near-term scenarios I could see would be Allegiant offering 757 service to Hawaii from Boise (as there is no nonstop competition, and our market would fit their business model), or Alaska Airlines offering 737-800 service to Maui nonstop, as there's been a lot of rumor and hearsay that Alaska/Horizon could be growing in Boise over the next few years. I'm more inclined to believe he was referring to Allegiant as I'm not sure the 737 has the range to reliably make it to Hawaii nonstop. But I could be wrong.

Interesting comment, nonetheless.

[boi2socal]

Originally Posted by BoiseAirport

Paul Cunningham, current Boise Airport President, said today at the annual economic forum that we may have non-stop air service to Hawaii soon.

Very interesting comment. The only two near-term scenarios I could see would be Allegiant offering 757 service to Hawaii from Boise (as there is no nonstop competition, and our market would fit their business model), or Alaska Airlines offering 737-800 service to Maui nonstop, as there's been a lot of rumor and hearsay that Alaska/Horizon could be growing in Boise over the next few years. I'm more inclined to believe he was referring to Allegiant as I'm not sure the 737 has the range to reliably make it to Hawaii nonstop. But I could be wrong.

Interesting comment, nonetheless.

I'd bet on Allegiant.

Where would Alaska expand? They've been more inclined to cut in the last decade and have tried expansion before.

[isangpogi]

While we're on the topic of expanded air service. I seem to recall several years ago that Mayor Bieter was talking about aggressively going after Asia service from Boise. Reasons cited were that other west coast gateways like LAX, SFO and SEA weren't expected to be able to increase capacity to keep up with demand. I tried searching for info, but found nothing on Google. When I have more time I'll try logging in through my university's library to search proquest. Is this something that is at all likely or that is still being pursued? It would seem that we would need a ton more feeder service into Boise for Asia flights to be viable and a much expanded terminal. Seems far-fetched even for Mayor Bieter...

[boi2socal]

Originally Posted by isangpogi

While we're on the topic of expanded air service. I seem to recall several years ago that Mayor Bieter was talking about aggressively going after Asia service from Boise. Reasons cited were that other west coast gateways like LAX, SFO and SEA weren't expected to be able to increase capacity to keep up with demand. I tried searching for info, but found nothing on Google. When I have more time I'll try logging in through my university's library to search proquest. Is this something that is at all likely or that is still being pursued? It would seem that we would need a ton more feeder service into Boise for Asia flights to be viable and a much expanded terminal. Seems far-fetched even for Mayor Bieter...

Maybe he was referring to cargo? This has been spoken of before. It will be decades before passenger service is extended to Asia.

[ATLonthebrain]

Paul Cunningham is the Chairman of the Boise Airport Commission, not the President of the Airport. The Commission is an Advisory Board to the Mayor & City Council.

Yes, Mayor Bieter was referring to Air Cargo, and none of those markets mentioned has run out of cargo capacity as of yet. It will be some time before considerable progress is made in this area of potential growth.

There are several opportunities for new or returning air service at Boise Airport in 2012. Stay tuned!

[BoiseAirport]

Originally Posted by ATLonthebrain

Paul Cunningham is the Chairman of the Boise Airport Commission, not the President of the Airport. The Commission is an Advisory Board to the Mayor & City Council.

Yes, Mayor Bieter was referring to Air Cargo, and none of those markets mentioned has run out of cargo capacity as of yet. It will be some time before considerable progress is made in this area of potential growth.

There are several opportunities for new or returning air service at Boise Airport in 2012. Stay tuned!

Thanks for the correction. The title didn't immediately come to me, and I was in the middle of class, so I was in a rush.

I know a lot less about cargo operations than I do about passenger operations, but from what I do know, I would think there is a lot of potential for air cargo growth in the valley. The airport isn't currently congested (especially once the 3rd runway is complete), the climate is great meaning few delays, the location is great, we're not in an area where the skies are overcrowded, and there's endless space to grow.

What I'm very curious to see is some of the new or returning air service you mention. From everything I've heard, American's service to Los Angeles is at least doing well enough that they're looking at Los Angeles to Spokane. I wonder if American would try Dallas/Ft. Worth to Boise again, especially now that they have the CRJ-700s with First. I doubt United/Continental would try Boise to Houston again. I understand that route was successful for a few years, but I'd figure they'd rather funnel that traffic through Denver and Chicago. It would be fantastic to have a link between Boise and Texas again.

But what I'm most interested in is the battle for market share between Southwest and Alaska/Horizon here, and how that will change the air service dynamic here. It would be my dream to see AS/QX rebuild their operations to the level of a large focus city, similar to what they had from 1995-2002.

Route map from October 2002:

[ATLonthebrain]

Originally Posted by BoiseAirport

Thanks for the correction. The title didn't immediately come to me, and I was in the middle of class, so I was in a rush.

I know a lot less about cargo operations than I do about passenger operations, but from what I do know, I would think there is a lot of potential for air cargo growth in the valley. The airport isn't currently congested (especially once the 3rd runway is complete), the climate is great meaning few delays, the location is great, we're not in an area where the skies are overcrowded, and there's endless space to grow.

What I'm very curious to see is some of the new or returning air service you mention. From everything I've heard, American's service to Los Angeles is at least doing well enough that they're looking at Los Angeles to Spokane. I wonder if American would try Dallas/Ft. Worth to Boise again, especially now that they have the CRJ-700s with First. I doubt United/Continental would try Boise to Houston again. I understand that route was successful for a few years, but I'd figure they'd rather funnel that traffic through Denver and Chicago. It would be fantastic to have a link between Boise and Texas again.

But what I'm most interested in is the battle for market share between Southwest and Alaska/Horizon here, and how that will change the air service dynamic here. It would be my dream to see AS/QX rebuild their operations to the level of a large focus city, similar to what they had from 1995-2002.

Route map from October 2002:

No worries..I just wanted to provide Mr. Cunningham's official title.

The thing with air cargo is that it is as much about logistics as anything else. There typically needs to be strong infrastructure in place, meaning multiple highways/interstates, proximity to other major metropolitan areas, rail links, in some cases a seaport, a large demographic which creates solid and consistent demand for air cargo capacity, and a strong complement of freight forwarder operators. As of now, those major markets mentioned (Seattle, Portland, Bay Area, LA) are all much stronger and each has superior accessibility and demand to that in Boise. I think it is smart to plan for the future, and that's what this is, long-term planning and forward thinking of what Boise Airport "could become" in the world of air cargo.

AA to DFW as well as UA to IAH are both very possible, dare I say likely, in the next couple of years. For UA, the IAH hub is unique to any other it operates, so there are dozens of new connect opportunities via IAH that UA cannot offer from any other hub in its network. That means there is the potential to attract new customers to the UA & Star Alliance network which may currently be traveling on another carrier. For AA, DFW offers the opportunity to strengthen the brand locally by flying nonstop to its largest hub, growing BOI market share and complementing its LAX service. A big problem is the CR7 is not currently based @ DFW. If that is the aircraft of choice, it may be a while before we see the service debut.

BOI has to be very careful about what new air service opportunities it pursues because there is the possibility of having too much of a good thing, meaning too much new service debuting in a short span of time that the community can't absorb quickly enough to be deemed successful. If anything fails, it will be very difficult to bring back in the future, because airlines don't have short-term memories. They will remember how formerly operated routes performed.

Not sure how much AS/QX will resemble its former self @ BOI, but it seems there is a move towards capitalizing on a strengthening local market. The focus remains on SEA & PDX, but there may be some compelling data for further expanded BOI service. At a minimum, AS/QX will gain a few points of market share on WN in 2012 with the latter discontinuing service to SEA in addition to RNO & SLC. WN will likely lose 15-20% of its existing passengers to other BOI carriers.

[isangpogi]

Originally Posted by ATLonthebrain

Paul Cunningham is the Chairman of the Boise Airport Commission, not the President of the Airport. The Commission is an Advisory Board to the Mayor & City Council.

Yes, Mayor Bieter was referring to Air Cargo, and none of those markets mentioned has run out of cargo capacity as of yet. It will be some time before considerable progress is made in this area of potential growth.

There are several opportunities for new or returning air service at Boise Airport in 2012. Stay tuned!

Cargo makes much more sense. Boise handling cargo sounds a lot like Anchorage doing the same thing. Anchorage has the benefit of proximity to sea but Boise would have more efficient land links via rail and road. When airspace over LA, San Fransisco, Seattle and Portland is an issue I hope Boise is equipped for increased cargo capacity.

On the subject of Alaska/Horizon, I wonder if Alaska is pondering adding a Boise to Reno flight to replace Southwest's departure from that route. Also, I wonder if Delta will increase capacity to SLC for the same reason...

[boi2socal]

Originally Posted by isangpogi

Cargo makes much more sense. Boise handling cargo sounds a lot like Anchorage doing the same thing. Anchorage has the benefit of proximity to sea but Boise would have more efficient land links via rail and road. When airspace over LA, San Fransisco, Seattle and Portland is an issue I hope Boise is equipped for increased cargo capacity.

On the subject of Alaska/Horizon, I wonder if Alaska is pondering adding a Boise to Reno flight to replace Southwest's departure from that route. Also, I wonder if Delta will increase capacity to SLC for the same reason...

Delta has actually decreased seats. They can now charge more with fewer seats and no competition. I prefer to fly from a regional airport in SoCal through SLC to BOI. But it is so insanely expensive this season on Delta (still get Alaska miles) and it appears their schedule goes unchanged when Southwest cuts in Jan.

[ATLonthebrain]

ANC is only a player in the game of Air Cargo because of its geography and the fact most widebody cargo aircraft can't fly nonstop between the U.S. and Asia. Those planes can carry much more total weight as freighters than they can in a traditional passenger configuration. More weight equals less range. So, they need a tech stop to refuel and continue on. If not for that, ANC would play an extremely minor role in the business. And, it's not an issue of "airspace" but "ground space" that will drive opportunity away from the coastal states and potentially to BOI, SLC, GEG in the years to come. As those airports run out of room to expand cargo facilities, the doors begin to open for other airports further inland.

As great as it would be to see a carrier replace Southwest to RNO, it's probably not going to happen in 2012. If Southwest, as the only game in town flying the route, and offering connecting opportunities to SoCal, Vegas, PHX, etc. couldn't make it work, it will be hard to convince another carrier to do it. From a seat capacity standpoint, I think the Q400 is the perfect sized aircraft and it has the right operational characteristics. But, when weighed against other opportunities Alaska Air Group has in its sights, I doubt it is high on the list.

DL is doing exactly what any company should do in the current situation @ SLC. It actually reduced BOI-SLC capacity a couple of months ago and the decision to do so was made prior to Southwest's announcement. It's part of a broader network reduction. Southwest's service doesn't end until 1/8/12, so it is still operating 2x daily for another 7-weeks. DL has reduced its overall capacity @ SLC, so BOI is but one of the markets to be impacted. Keep in mind DL is ridding itself of dozens of 50-seat RJs, as well as the last of the DC9's it acquired from NW. Something will happen for the spring/summer BOI schedule, but not likely sooner than that. And, it certainly won't be anything above the 8x daily service DL operated over the summer. Hopefully its service to SLC remains in extremely high demand, warranting both added capacity along with the ability to charge a fare premium post-Southwest. The latter is what is most important to the company, but it may see a parallel opportunity to increase frequency and/or aircraft size as the traditionally busiest season of travel approaches and become even more profitable.

[isangpogi]

Originally Posted by ATLonthebrain

ANC is only a player in the game of Air Cargo because of its geography and the fact most widebody cargo aircraft can't fly nonstop between the U.S. and Asia. Those planes can carry much more total weight as freighters than they can in a traditional passenger configuration. More weight equals less range. So, they need a tech stop to refuel and continue on. If not for that, ANC would play an extremely minor role in the business. And, it's not an issue of "airspace" but "ground space" that will drive opportunity away from the coastal states and potentially to BOI, SLC, GEG in the years to come. As those airports run out of room to expand cargo facilities, the doors begin to open for other airports further inland.

As great as it would be to see a carrier replace Southwest to RNO, it's probably not going to happen in 2012. If Southwest, as the only game in town flying the route, and offering connecting opportunities to SoCal, Vegas, PHX, etc. couldn't make it work, it will be hard to convince another carrier to do it. From a seat capacity standpoint, I think the Q400 is the perfect sized aircraft and it has the right operational characteristics. But, when weighed against other opportunities Alaska Air Group has in its sights, I doubt it is high on the list.

DL is doing exactly what any company should do in the current situation @ SLC. It actually reduced BOI-SLC capacity a couple of months ago and the decision to do so was made prior to Southwest's announcement. It's part of a broader network reduction. Southwest's service doesn't end until 1/8/12, so it is still operating 2x daily for another 7-weeks. DL has reduced its overall capacity @ SLC, so BOI is but one of the markets to be impacted. Keep in mind DL is ridding itself of dozens of 50-seat RJs, as well as the last of the DC9's it acquired from NW. Something will happen for the spring/summer BOI schedule, but not likely sooner than that. And, it certainly won't be anything above the 8x daily service DL operated over the summer. Hopefully its service to SLC remains in extremely high demand, warranting both added capacity along with the ability to charge a fare premium post-Southwest. The latter is what is most important to the company, but it may see a parallel opportunity to increase frequency and/or aircraft size as the traditionally busiest season of travel approaches and become even more profitable.

I really like learning so much about about aviation and particularly air cargo. I had no idea that Cargo planes were unable to make it to the mainland and that is why Anchorage has become such a key player in air cargo. After I posted, I thought about what you just said. I've flown the BOI-RNO route before, but only as a connection to LAX. Those who I've chatted with on the plane have also been on their way somewhere else besides Reno. I don't think we'll miss the Reno route too much as long as Southwest still provides good 1-stop destinations, and it does through Oakland and Denver.

My wishlist for Boise expanded service would start with American adding flights to DFW, and Delta doing BOI-ATL. Hawaii would be great, but I'm not a fan of Allegiant after living in Idaho Falls so I'm willing to hold out. Also US Airways to Philadelphia would be great to get us a Northeast destination...

[isangpogi]

American Eagle is pulling back out of Boise.... :/

http://www.ktvb.com/news/business/Ai...134767658.html

[BoiseAirport]

Wow, that was unexpected, and pretty sad, too. I had heard the route had been doing pretty well, but I guess that was incorrect. Always sucks to lose an airline.

I wonder if QX will give another go at it within the next few years.

[boi2socal]

Originally Posted by BoiseAirport

Wow, that was unexpected, and pretty sad, too. I had heard the route had been doing pretty well, but I guess that was incorrect. Always sucks to lose an airline.

I wonder if QX will give another go at it within the next few years.

I think passengers counts were fine. I'm sure fuel and running their own station made the route expensive to run. They should have hired out ground services to Horizon. Perhaps American Eagle doesn't allow that, I don't know. Plus, their times were unattractive from LAX and flying Eagle out of the remote terminal is a pain.

2012 is not shaping up as a great year for air travel in Boise.

[isangpogi]

Originally Posted by boi2socal

I think passengers counts were fine. I'm sure fuel and running their own station made the route expensive to run. They should have hired out ground services to Horizon. Perhaps American Eagle doesn't allow that, I don't know. Plus, their times were unattractive from LAX and flying Eagle out of the remote terminal is a pain.

2012 is not shaping up as a great year for air travel in Boise.

We need some good news to come to Boise air travel. The destinations list on BOI's wikipedia page is filling up with phrases like "service ending on..." I was worried about the route when I heard that American's parent company, AMR is going through Chapter 11. They said in the article that the route cancellation is not related to the bankruptcy but certainly it is due to American's revenue problems. Here I thought that American was getting ready to connect BOI and DFW again! American Airlines though may be headed for a merger with US Airways, according to the statesman.

http://www.idahostatesman.com/2011/1...p-through.html

Its rough to lose an airline, but at least we're not losing service altogether to LAX. United will continue to provide service. And maybe, just maybe, this will pave the way for Alaska Horizon to start up BOI-LAX again.....