Queen's Park Politics

[Pimpmasterdac]

Originally Posted by Brandon716

^Harper wasted billions on G20 spending not related with the G20 (with a B) and people looked over it, particularly Ontarians who gave him a majority government. Why should ehealth and OLG matter to Ontarians on a provincial level?

So to sum up your point, Harper got away with slush spending and because he's big bad CPC, so its ok for McGuinty and the Liberals to get away with their piss poor spending too!

Neither spending is right, Harper got his majority due to the collapse of the federal Liberals, the provincal Liberals will follow their national counterparts!

Originally Posted by Brandon716

What I saw is that McGuinty wanted to revolutionize health records and convert it to a modern database system, he handed the program over to who he thought would be good leaders, and they screwed the program up and wasted a billion $$$. So he cut the program and let them go. Nothing that exciting if you ask me... He has vision and leadership and tried to make a big accomplishment with the conversion of health records, and he failed.

So Ontario should just say no big deal, your government gave it a half-assed effort, you had such a great revolutionary view that the epic failure and cost overruns aren't a big concern. All that matters is effort, here's a third term Dalton!

Originally Posted by Brandon716

You seem to be an emotional voter, not a results-oriented or issues voter. Your emotional desire to personally pay lower taxes is getting stroked by Hudak's relentless "tax cut, spending cut" mantra, and despite the fact that he says absolutely nothing more substantive than that, it is making your ego get bigger and bigger every time he says cut... Its the emotion you're running on.

Hmm I guess if you consider consider disappointment in politicians not honouring their electoral promises emotional, I don't see what your getting at with emotions, its more about integrity or lack thereof. McGuinty ran specifically in 2003 on the promise of no tax increases, that's not emotions, it's a historical fact. He broken that promise and many more, all in the name of "progress".

If McGuinty had been truthful and said, we need to invest in heathcare and education that requires tax increases then there would be less of an issue. But he clearly lied and I have no respect for him or his cause!

I and sure other Ontarians could accept tax and spending polices as long as that's what we knew we were getting into. McGuinty talked up all the spending, and improvements but conveniently stayed quiet about the tax increases. But then he wouldn;t have become premier eh

Originally Posted by Brandon716

You also haven't checked to realize the entire conservative caucus supports the HST behind closed doors and out of the public eye, as it was a tax simplification issue to most Liberals and Conservatives (the HST politically enjoys near unanimous support out of the public eye).

The HST was also relatively neutral. It raised energy prices since the PST portion was applied on gas and energy, but it also cut taxes in other areas. Again, revenue neutral. But that "tax cut, spending cut" mantra just SOUNDS so delicious. I want a piece of the pie. MMMMMMMMMM

Got it. Now I understand why Hudak is polling well... Emotion and personal ego.

If Ontarians make the mistake they look like they are making with Hudak, then that carrot he throws you will have no calories. You'll see meaningless tax reductions and a gutting of Ontario's services just like the Harris years.

When did McGuinty say in the 2007 election he would bring in the HST? Not once!

HST is a good piece of policy which I admit, however McGuinty did not mention it once in his 2007 campaign, and unlike the Liberals in BC didn't even bother consulting the people of Ontario on their input.

Unlike Chretien, Hudak has never called for the HST to be scrapped just for it to be reformed or provincal portions to be repealed on energy since Ontario would pay a huge penalty for breaking HST government with the feds!

Again you go on about emotion, like tax cuts are all I or others care about. Its about honestly and keeping promises.

You might not of liked the Harris PC era, but Harris was honest about the level of spending & tax cuts that he was going to implement with the Common Sense Revoltuion. I appreciated honesty more than deceitful lying that got Dalton & Co. elected!

Originally Posted by Brandon716

There doesn't need to be another embarrassing hole dug on Eglinton Ave just for it to be filled back in, for example... Hudak is just not right for Ontario at this time and juncture. Tax cuts, spending cuts aren't what Ontario needs. Ontario needs innovation and investment.

I agree with you on the last point, Ontario does need innovation and investment. However continuing high deficits for programs we cannot afford is will not lead to further innovation or investment. Cut the fat, shrink the bureaucracy, stand up against public unions and we might actually get some of these things.

Is Hudak some great white in shinning armour? No. But he's a breathe of fresh air and someone that more business and investment friendly than McGunity and his band of crooks!

Either way the Ontario PCs have a 10 point lead on the Liberals, it's gonna be a mop uop for them in October

[Dr Nevergold]

^Like I said, I take the words from someone named pimp with a grain of salt. You do realize everything you said came back down to the same emotional argument... Cut taxes, cut spending, cut the bureaucracy and everything magically solves itself thereafter... That isn't a plan, it is a joke to get your vote. It isn't my choice to make, it is all of Ontario's choice to make. Hudak would be a mistake, McGuinty has delivered results over the past 8 years. It'd be nice to have another term before the Tories come in to sit on their thumbs, but we'll have to see in October what happens.

[Pimpmasterdac]

What great results has McGuinty delivered? How is Ontario better now than it was 8 years ago

[Dr Nevergold]

Yes, and you're ready to mop them up. I know... Stop, rewind, repeat. You've made your simplistic "cut taxes, cut spending, cut bureaucracy and everything will magically work" spill several times. I got it, it is the typical conservative emotional appeal... Doesn't really mean anything, especially since Hudak hasn't pledged to reverse the HST, but I've heard the message loudly, and clearly.

The fact is you don't care about the McGuinty record of accomplishment, so it serves no purpose to re-explain the investments in transit, education, health care, green energy, and a restructuring of the tax code (via the HST) so that Ontario becomes easier to do business in.

I've already told you that there are reservations I have on certain policies, such as some nanny laws like the car being impounded after 40kmh over the limit, but overall his administration has been good for Ontario.

Under the previous PC government, Ontario was crippled. Hospitals had serious funding gaps and were deteriorating, the Eglinton Subway that the Rae administration helped fund was literally cancelled as it was under construction and the hole filled up with dirt.

Ontario was in a period of regression, and it is because of the conservative concept of not taking risks and investing in the future and making bold moves and plans. Ontario still had debt, and McGuinty inherited a bad budget.

I'm not sure how old you are, but I was old enough to remember Ernie Eves as he took over the crumbling Harris government. The "Common Sense Revolution" regressed Ontario by a number of years and left the province in debt without any serious investment.

McGuinty restructured the tax code, he didn't increase taxes to some rediculous level. The HST was coupled with tax reductions in other areas, and a few fees like the health fee that have increased. Big deal... There isn't some gravy train to mop up, it is a mythical gravy train.

[Pimpmasterdac]

Originally Posted by Brandon716

The fact is you don't care about the McGuinty record of accomplishment, so it serves no purpose to re-explain the investments in transit, education, health care, green energy, and a restructuring of the tax code (via the HST) so that Ontario becomes easier to do business in.

Yes health care that now includes bureaucratic LHINs and has catered to hospital union demands rather than the best interests of Ontarians .

Education, since lowering the bar on literacy tests and math tests, and dumbing down the curriculum makes it appear kids are doing better than reality. As McGuinty caves into the demands of OSSTF rather than get a fair collective bargains for the province.

Green energy?! This is the same McGuinty that promised in 2007 to shut all coal fired generators, and said the PC plan was bad since it would have shut it down by 2013 (which is what McGuinty will do). As well the feed-in tariff is going to contribute to unnecessarily expense energy costs in the next few years.

Originally Posted by Brandon716

Under the previous PC government, Ontario was crippled. Hospitals had serious funding gaps and were deteriorating, the Eglinton Subway that the Rae administration helped fund was literally cancelled as it was under construction and the hole filled up with dirt.

You seem to leave out that many of these infrastructure and healthcare cuts were not Harris's doing but the slash and burn mentality of Chretien/Martin on the federal level with provincial transfers. But conveniently Harris is seen as the evil healthcare hating ogre while Chretien/Martin are seen as fiscal geniuses.

When McGuinty came in 2004 the provinces signed the health accord and now McGuinty is seen as the big friends of healthcare (and their organized unions)

Originally Posted by Brandon716

Ontario was in a period of regression, and it is because of the conservative concept of not taking risks and investing in the future and making bold moves and plans. Ontario still had debt, and McGuinty inherited a bad budget.

I'm not sure how old you are, but I was old enough to remember Ernie Eves as he took over the crumbling Harris government. The "Common Sense Revolution" regressed Ontario by a number of years and left the province in debt without any serious investment.

McGuinty restructured the tax code, he didn't increase taxes to some ridiculous level. The HST was coupled with tax reductions in other areas, and a few fees like the health fee that have increased. Big deal... There isn't some gravy train to mop up, it is a mythical gravy train.

McGuinty inherited a bad budget?! Thats rich. He got a $5.6 billion deficit from Eves, Harris had to clean up an NDP deficit of ~$17 billion after Rae, and when Hudak takes power is gonna have to clean up McGuinty's ~$17 billion deficit.

As well you seem to totally discredit the PC government, when they actually invested more in healthcare in their term than any previous government. But again that wouldn't fit it with labelling all CPC/PC parties as "regressive". Meanwhile despite his "healthcare premium" (i.e. income tax hike) McGuinty de-listed total services from OHIP that we now have to pay for out of pocket.

Finally Hudak's job isn't going to be easy. Having to cut public sector jobs and actually taking a stand against outrageous union demands will make him look like some evil, extreme right-winger that's only concerned about tax cuts. Ontario needs to cut frills and make sure the services that we currently have as still there 10-20 years from now.

Again when I say Hudak is gonna mop up, I mean he's gonna mop up the Liberals in the election, easily coast to a majority. He's had lead now for 6 months, which is currently at 10% and most non-politically attuned people have never heard of him! McGuinty is having senior cabinet ministers and people jumping the sinking ship.

As well your from Hudak's area the PCs have been proponents of the Mid-Peninsula Corridor highway, which would be a great economic boom for you area and for Ontario!

[Dr Nevergold]

^You seem keen on quoting people line by line instead of offering your own ideas independently. I'm requesting that you stop offering line-by-line rebuttals and stick to your own ideas if you can.

You may not realize, but the Harris government shut hospitals, closed facilities, and cut things. They didn't expand and maintain. If you want to make the case that the PC government of Harris expanded these things, fine. It isn't his actual record. It isn't a label, it is reality.

You're simply not representing what McGuinty has done for Ontario in the past 8 years. He inherited a government in shambles: no transit investment in Toronto and other cities, now Toronto is getting an Eglinton-Crosstown underground LRT network and a revamped Scarborough RT that will be tied into a singular line, an Ottawa got funding guarantees from the province and feds so it can begin it's 12km underground LRT network as well.

I know that part of that funding came from the Harper Government, but the point is that the Harris government was diametrically opposed to expansion of transit, it sought cuts, and Hudak is running a far-right, cut-everything platform. He's not interested in investments, and that's why you are supporting him... So why vote for a regressive government that believes in cuts cuts cuts?

McGuinty isn't perfect, but he needs another term to finish out these projects and keep Ontario on the right road for better healthcare. I don't want another Harris-styled cut-cut-cut government that Hudak is running on.

So you can keep your mop and your cuts. It won't do anything but hurt Ontario.

Again, you never addressed the HST issue. The only tax McGuinty really tinkered significantly with is the HST... He simplified the tax code, and Hudak has made no committments to revert to the GST/PST setup or to reduce the HST. He's all talk, no action. He's no plan Hudak...

[Pimpmasterdac]

Funny when I give an opinion you call it an "emotional response" yet when I use quotes and facts you ask for independent ideas as my opinion.

Hudak has never has he would cancel the Eglinton-Crosstown subway/LRT. Just because Harris cancelled the similar subway doesn't mean ALL PCs will kill transit. It was a PC government under Bill Davis that brought Toronto mass transit. Rae had 5 years in office an put off transit to the end, wasting most of his political capital and ultimately only getting half a subway line. Ultimately the province can't be expected to only fund public transit, Toronto needs new freeways and other road expansions to felt its gridlock issues.

Again you follow the liberal line, Harris was the "Mike the Knife" of healthcare and education that cut without regard, meanwhile say nothing or even acknowledge how Chretien/Martin & the feds totally gutted funding for healthcare and post-secondary education. It isn't a label, it is reality for things in the mid-1990s. Just wouldn't make Harris seem as regressive and people like to imagine.

Sure everyone would love grand healthcare programs, grand education with full-time kindergarten (aka subsidized daycare by stealth) cheap post-secondary education. The reality is you cannot afford to do everything, in a global economy that requires competitive tax rates. Ontario cannot become an island to ourselves, our spending commitments for social programs alone will outpace economic growth in the next decades, we need to be able to maintain what we already have. Ontario need to make tough choices as to what's a necessity and frill, McGuinty is trying to please every social group rather than own up to making these decisions.

HST is good public policy, just bad politics. It's McGuinty's strong arm approach of adding provincial HST to gasoline, hydro and other energy costs that people despise. At least both NDP & PCs have agreed to reduce part it not all of this part of the HST. As well Hudak has been honest saying he cannot repeal the HST since its been implement, he's not getting on a soap box like Chretien did saying that he's going to repeal the GST then not keeping his commitment.

Finally public opinion is that McGuinty is going to be mopped up, that's not mine its the facts of non-partisan pollsters and seat projectors http://www.threehundredeight.blogspot.com/

[Dr Nevergold]

^Everything you're talking about is emotional. The "mop up" comment and then the repeat of explaining away "cut taxes, cut spending, cut bureaucracy". Then you turn around and say "but Hudak hasn't promised to cut this or that, so he's good". Insert the mop up comment and we're back to square one. I don't think you can make up your mind as to what to stand for, you're just saying anything to defend Hudak's candidacy. You are all happy about cuts, then you turn around and say "but he's not REALLY cutting..."

You haven't said anything new, but if Hudak is Premier come fall, so be it. I'm a politico, I understand the tide is against McGuinty, but it would be painful to see him go and see Ontario revert to a conservative that has stated on record that he's essentially another Harris while simultaneously we have Ford in Toronto and Harper in Ottawa. Its like the trifecta of disgust... LOL

But as a politico, I think it means in time we'll be in for a Liberal landslide in a few years after people experience the cuts and lack of innovation and investment. Its the nature of the political cycle, I just wished McGuinty could get another 4 years to secure these most important of projects and keep enhancing OHIP. Harris truly ruined a lot of things, and if you want to understate it, that's fine.. I simply disagree.

[Pimpmasterdac]

HAHAHA wow talk about a lack of factual argument on your end.

Your whole argument is an emotional one! It revolves around Hudak being a bad man who wants to cut services and taxes. The boogeyman of Ontario ooooooo oh no he's going to cut a bloated civil service lets chase all PCs out with pitchforks!

Your can't even offer a rebuttal to ANY of the facts about McGuinty's many failures. Just continue stating the liberal propaganda in your mind he's a great leader, that's brought quote unquote "innovation and investment" yet totally ignoring the piss poor state our province is in, talk about tunnel vision

Meanwhile you continue to ignore that Harris was left with a pile of shit on his lap when Chretien/Martin took a knife to heathcare, education & other social services in the mid-1990s. You don't want facts or history to get in the way of distorting Harris as the evil "Mike the Knife" that you love to portray! God forbid a Liberal be portrayed as cutting services and bureaucracy, just blame it on a Conservative instead.

As someone who is a quote unquote "politico" you should know Ontario executive government & Liberals do not mix. Liberals have governed for only 13 of that last 68 years! PCs are the natural governing party, having been in power 47 of the last 68 years, that will once again have to fix up yet another mess left by others.

Please offer some actual arguments and/or facts in any future reply. Not just some emotional bleeding heart liberal spew. It would be a pleasant change and greatly appreciated

[bornagainbiking]

All I can say is look at the US. In many cases it is either a indicator of things to come though not at that proportion or like an atomic blast we will feel the fallout.
Government has to change and the purse is getting light. We (in Ontario) are in for a rough initial ride. And if you thing that Hudak is realistic and has stated he will address the issue and hard, you are right. Who will be in the drivers seat for the rough ride.
But I assure you if by some freak accident the Dalton gang returns, you just watch, he will HAVE to react to reality and will DO many of the pledges of the dreaded bogey man PCs. He just ain't gonna tell you before an election. And you know as well as I how old loose tie and rolled up sleeves Dalton just says shucks and adds a health premium (tax) or drops an HST on us, all the while the transferred provincial staff get a huge severance package for leaving a job and start the new one Monday with the Feds. Oops sorry missed that one too.
Take a look at Stelco and as time went by and things got automated you had a force of 14,000 and now around 1000. How does anyone fund the pensions with a reduced work force. Sad tale and harsh reality.

[Northern Light]

As someone who is non-partisan, who has voted for 4 different parties over the course of many elections, is not a member of, nor a donor to any one of them, nor overly dogmatic in my own beliefs, my 2 cents follows:

McGuinty's record is imperfect (duh); I know of no politician or party who after 8 years of power won't have made some decisions that few agree with and plenty than one group or another opposes.

This was true in the Harris era and the Rae era and so on.

As such, it would be unfair to hold them to that standard.

Before deciding who to offer support to, I would argue, as a voter, you owe yourself, and your society to reflect both on the record of achievement and failure of the current administration (whoever, whichever party that may be at a given time), then consider whether the alternative party(s) offer both a better platform and an equal or better leader and team that might credibly deliver on their promises.

With than in mind...my primer below:

******

McGuinty's Successes: - Green Energy

I believe we can all agree that coal electricity, while cheap, and reliable, has been the source of much smog, asthma and other health concerns. As such, it was/is/ and will be desirable to reduce its use as quickly as reasonably possible.

With respect to pre-McGuinty times, no party or leader moved to close any coal generating stations in Ontario. (that includes the NDP).

Subsequently, the coal plant at Lakeview is closed many units shut down at Nanticoke and Lambton. Its worth noting that only 2-3 years ago, we had 30 odd smog days in a warm summer. I think there may have been 2 this year?

So he (McGuinty) deserves credit for progress on this file.

Certainly it has been slower than expected; and there are legitimate issues around 'green energy' policies. However, on the whole, I think we can say his record is good.

We're we to criticize the 'Green Energy' deals, it may be worth asking what alternatives there are, if one wishes to reduce coal.

McGuinty has backed expansion of Hydro at Niagara and in Northern Ontario. Its not as cheap as coal, though it is a bit cheaper than wind power still.

Nuclear is hideously expensive (we still haven't paid off Darlington) and construction of new facilities alone will far exceed the cost of wind power, without considering long term disposal/storage costs of nuclear waste, or any liability issues.

Solar is absurdly expensive for the moment, but it also constitutes a minute amount of generation on the grid, and represents less than 1% of your current hydro bill. Its also falling in price, though I will freely grant in needs to come down by 3/4 before being a 'competitively priced' source of power.

So finally, on this issue, let's consider whether either opposing party is offering anything materially different or better?

Since all parties are committed to coal-free; and must honour current energy production agreements; where would we get the remaining replacement power and at what cost? The simple truth is, both the NDP and the Tory plans are moot on this point.

Hudak's platform does make a worthwhile point that some bureaucracy could be reduced by wiping out the Ontario Power Authority and the Independent Electricity System Operator and re-merging those functions into Hydro One and OPG. However, the savings would not exactly show up on your hydro bill (too small to counter even one's years inflationary increase). Not that we shouldn't do that; just that it in no way allows for cheaper power in a material sense.

*********con't in next post

[Northern Light]

McGuinty's Successes con't - Education

So did our current government score here?

Let's see.

High School Graduation Rate 68% when he was elected, 81% this year.

Really not bad (yes I know I'm about to hear about 'standards' ....I'll get there.

How about percentage of students going on to post-secondary education? That's also up significantly though I don't recall the exact numbers, it was more than a 10% and puts Ontario well ahead of most U.S. States and other provinces.

So, what about that concern that perhaps more students are passing because 'standards' were lowered?

In fact there is no real evidence to support this with regard to the curriculum in general. There is evidence that the 'standardized tests' were amended in a way that might be construed as lowering certain standards....

So how might we fairly evaluate 'standards'? The obvious answer would be to refer to international benchmarks on tests used throughout the OECD to compare how Ontario's students fared in Literacy and Numeracy with those of the U.S., France, Japan etc.

The answer, by the way, is quite well. Indeed Ontario's relative scores are up, not down, and we place in the top 10 jurisdictions consistently.

With respect to competing parties, I'm un-aware of any plan to materially raise academic standards or to make tuitions any more affordable. I am happy to stand corrected, but if not, what the others offer amounts to 'status quo' which is hardly a great argument for change.

Finally, we have the 'early years' program. ie. full day Kindergarten.

Now, you can like or dislike the idea, we can quibble about implementation or costs.

But it has been recommened by Royal Commission on education, and by reports commissioned for ALL Three leading parties. Nor has any party, including Mr. Hudak come out and opposed it. So again, if change is the argument, I'm not sure who the vehicle for it would be.

Healthcare

Finally, among major issues, Health.

So let's see, wait times are down in every major category, most to within medically acceptable ranges.

Ontario's wait times are now the least in Canada.

Considerable renewal in Hospitals has taken hold (new Women's College, new Humber River Regional, New Wing at Toronto General etc. etc.)

For the first time in Ontario, children of low income families (not on welfare) now have access to dental care, including preventive care.

The old rule was kids under 13, urgent care only. Now its 18 and includes preventive care.

A huge array of vaccinations are now free, saving the system money in the long term.

While, E-health was mishandled, it was first bungled by the Harris Gov't who likewise gave out major computer-system related contracts to consultants that proceeded to spend vast sums and get little result.

There is no excuse for it; but it is one of the rare scandals of the current regime, and they do seem to be on track to deliver electronic Health records within the next 2 years or so.

**

Of course, they have failings. I'm no fan of the LHINS, I think the idea was good, the execution has been poor, and a mixture of straight-hospital mergers and uploading planning back to the MOH in house would probably save some money and better serve various communities.

They've also been slow on the organ donor issue. And the dental program could use extending to adults as well as a higher income cut off (22k) is a bit modest.

But money doesn't grow on trees, and on balance, I think they're record is sound.

Hudak's argument for ending LHINs is sound, but will not produce mega-savings, as their functions will be assumed by real staff (some new) at either the Ministry or Hospital levels.

In the end, that cause alone is insufficient to malign the current regime or elect another.

***summary in next post**

[Northern Light]

Finally in summary,

We would look forward to what platforms other parties have put up and consider, assuming we find them credible, whether or not they would be preferable to 'staying the course'

The Conservative Platform is to a large degree 'status quo' in so far as it claims that they will shut down coal, will continue with full-day Kindergarten and doesn't propose much that's drastic.

The NDP platform might be similarly described.

So what are the clear differences, if any?

Well in fairness we don't yet have the Liberal Platform to compare things to, so will look only at the other 2 platforms vs each other and the status quo.

Conservatives:

Will build a 2B highway across the Niagara Escarpment that is widely opposed as both un-necessary and expensive by local governments, many residents including partisan conservatives.

Status quo - A commitment to bring all-day GO service to Hamilton by 2015 with further investment TBD, but no new highways.

Will cancel LHINS and fold 2 power agencies to cut bureaucracy. Full points on this one, the other parties should steal this idea; but in its own right, it does not balance out the above problem.

Will lower power bills by cancelling the debt charge, but somehow, mysteriously will not find any new revenue to pay for a debt that is most certainly still there. ???????

Will balance the budget on roughly the same schedule as the Liberals, not cut services, but will lower HST revenues and Power Bill revenues .......hmmmmm

The above seems partly to be by taking the Liberals economic growth projections then adding .1% every year to magically make new money appear.

Hmmmmm

Possible, sure, credible?????

One last item, they do support adding 250VQA stores, this idea I like. But again, on its own, not enough reason to support regime change.

*********

NDP

Similar to Tories, but no Niagara highway, instead we get multi-year transit relief for cities, as the big promise and no more ambulance fees. Though they do seem to account for some increase in revenue through corporate taxes.

******

Has anything said really justified a regime change?

Not yet, to my mind.

But I await the Liberal Platform; and to see how all of the party leaders hold up under the scrutiny of a campaign.

For now.....I have insufficient reason to change whose in office; and some good reasons to stay with what I know.

But 9 weeks is a lifetime in politics, so we shall see.

[Dr Nevergold]

Originally Posted by Pimpmasterdac

HAHAHA wow talk about a lack of factual argument on your end.

Your whole argument is an emotional one! It revolves around Hudak being a bad man who wants to cut services and taxes. The boogeyman of Ontario ooooooo oh no he's going to cut a bloated civil service lets chase all PCs out with pitchforks!

Your can't even offer a rebuttal to ANY of the facts about McGuinty's many failures. Just continue stating the liberal propaganda in your mind he's a great leader, that's brought quote unquote "innovation and investment" yet totally ignoring the piss poor state our province is in, talk about tunnel vision

Meanwhile you continue to ignore that Harris was left with a pile of shit on his lap when Chretien/Martin took a knife to heathcare, education & other social services in the mid-1990s. You don't want facts or history to get in the way of distorting Harris as the evil "Mike the Knife" that you love to portray! God forbid a Liberal be portrayed as cutting services and bureaucracy, just blame it on a Conservative instead.

As someone who is a quote unquote "politico" you should know Ontario executive government & Liberals do not mix. Liberals have governed for only 13 of that last 68 years! PCs are the natural governing party, having been in power 47 of the last 68 years, that will once again have to fix up yet another mess left by others.

Please offer some actual arguments and/or facts in any future reply. Not just some emotional bleeding heart liberal spew. It would be a pleasant change and greatly appreciated

I never said Hudak was a boogeyman, I am simply calling him out for what he says: "Tax cuts, spending cuts, cut the bureaucracy" and then he has few plans. He thinks the market can solve all ill's and everything naturally works out by cutting government services, and pretending everything bad comes from a bloated government. Now I've called you out personally for being hypocritical: you say you want this "tax cut, spending cuts, bureaucracy cuts" and then you turn around and tell me that "he isn't going to really cut everything, so he's alright". You can't have it both ways, you can't say he's going to cut everything and solve everything by cutting, then say "oh, but he's going to spend on the important items" as if it makes sense...

It is simplistic thinking at its best, it is stupidity at its worst. There is no boogeyman here, you're pretending that Hudak is a victim... Apparently a victimless crime since nothing was said.

As far as emotion, we've been over the substance already. You've rejected the real progress McGuinty has made. You can refer to the higher quality health funding and the better education standards and the much improved, Green energy record his administration has provided... Pretend it doesn't exist if you want, but McGuinty has made amazing progress for Ontario.


You're pretty much toting a hardline Conservative viewpoint, pimp. You blame all the ill's of the Harris era on Chretien? LOL That's some pretty baseless rhetoric if I've ever heard it. You've obviously got a vitriolic hatred of the Liberal party both provincially and federally. I simply disagree with the Conservative party on a lot of fronts, I wouldn't blame Harper for McGuinty's ehealth problem (I'm not looking to fill arguments from a purely ideological viewpoint as you're doing in favor of the Conservatives)... But you're going above and beyond just to say the Liberal party is the reason why the Mike Harris government was a failure. The next time a Conservative wants to blame the Mike Harris debacle on the Liberal party, I'll laugh even HARDER than I'm literally laughing at my keyboard right now.

I guess it is progress that you are admitting that Mike Harris' government was a total failure and I'm just waiting for you to back-step and change your statements one more time. LOL Are you going to tell me now that the Harris government was a success? If so, I'll just respond and jokingly tell you it was because Chretien was in power at the federal level, since that is the hilarious path you are on. LOLOLOLOL

pimp, my friend, your statements stand on their own. I don't know that I really have to say much more in response to you. LOL

[ForestryW]

Originally Posted by Brandon716

You're pretty much toting a hardline Conservative viewpoint...

I fear this is getting more and more common in Ontario and Canada on the whole. Canadians are shifting to the right, like most of the world.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by van Hemessen

I fear this is getting more and more common in Ontario and Canada on the whole. Canadians are shifting to the right, like most of the world.

Except Norway, and Norway is doing amazingly well. Perhaps we should take note of that.

As for the election, my vote is going to the Liberals. They've done as well as could be expected from the clusterf**k left behind by Harris and Eaves. We're a have-not province because of long-term effects of the Rae, Harris and Eaves governments. Dalton just got left with the blame because we are all so simpleminded and reactionary that we need a readily available target in our fast-paced world. Dalton fits the bill.

[Dr Nevergold]

It certainly is disturbing that "Liberal-bashing" has become fun in Canada. I mean it is one thing to disagree, but to start making statements that McGuinty needs to be "mopped up" and that Harris' government failed because of Chretien? It is pure vitriolic rhetoric.

I'm sorry, it is too easy for a politician to run around screaming he'll cut your taxes. It's an easy vote-getter. McGuinty's government - for all it's problems, yes ehealth was an absolute failure - has done a lot of good. Ontario needs to see through things like the new Ottawa LRT plan, the conversion of Scarborough RT and creation of an Eglinton underground LRT. Ontario needs to complete it's conversion to a greener energy economy. Ontario needs to continue investing smartly in health programs.

Ontario needs to maintain it's Liberal government for at least another term, it is too early to give up on the progress made since the Harris days of cuts, cuts, cuts. Politicians who cut services have the easy job, it is the governments that actually innovate, change, take risk, and do something that have it hard. McGuinty has taken those risks... It isn't time to back-peddle to the horrible cuts that Hudak threatens.

Converted into English from political speak: A politician who obsesses over cuts is a politician with no ideas and cannot innovate, a politician who wants to take risks and speak about investments is a politician looking to make changes and perform. Hudak is a do-nothing politician who is trying to ride to office on cynicism and uses tax cuts/spending cuts as his only message.

If Ontario takes the do-nothing "cut" bait, yes, the province will not be the better for it. When Hudak says he wants to cut everything, believe it. It will have consequences. Just look at what Ford is doing in Toronto right now, he's cutting everything from trying to get rid of 24 hour bus service to selling off city employees, and the taxes are *still* going up. The tax cut/spending cut message is just to buy votes.

[Pimpmasterdac]

Originally Posted by Brandon716

I never said Hudak was a boogeyman, I am simply calling him out for what he says: "Tax cuts, spending cuts, cut the bureaucracy" and then he has few plans. He thinks the market can solve all ill's and everything naturally works out by cutting government services, and pretending everything bad comes from a bloated government. Now I've called you out personally for being hypocritical: you say you want this "tax cut, spending cuts, bureaucracy cuts" and then you turn around and tell me that "he isn't going to really cut everything, so he's alright". You can't have it both ways, you can't say he's going to cut everything and solve everything by cutting, then say "oh, but he's going to spend on the important items" as if it makes sense...

You specifically were worried of Hudak cutting the Eglinton-Crosstown LRT. PCs have never stated they would cut that specific project and to the best up-to-date info eliminating it is not in their platform. Cutting the size and scope of government, yes that needs to be done. The current deficit situation is both unacceptable and unsustainable.

Originally Posted by Brandon716

It is simplistic thinking at its best, it is stupidity at its worst. There is no boogeyman here, you're pretending that Hudak is a victim... Apparently a victimless crime since nothing was said.

As far as emotion, we've been over the substance already. You've rejected the real progress McGuinty has made. You can refer to the higher quality health funding and the better education standards and the much improved, Green energy record his administration has provided... Pretend it doesn't exist if you want, but McGuinty has made amazing progress for Ontario.

Never portrayed Hudak as a victim, however giving the impression that he's some evil right-winger with no sense of moral compass isn't realistic either. Cuts in spending need to be made, healthcare costs are going to rise exponentially year after year taking a bigger chuck of the provincial budget. Ontario can either wake up and get our financial house in order or continue with deficit spending that's not sustainable.

Again people give me some examples of McGuinty's progress?? A lot of the "successes" were due to a health tax that was not in his platform and restoration of federal transfers to provinces. The same things in healthcare you portray Harris as cynically cutting, you hypocritically give McGuinty credit as amazing progress; main difference was the federal Liberals in Harris's era were cutting while McGunity's era the Martin Liberals restored. If Eves had somehow won re-election would this have been amazing progress, just sitting on his ass waiting for more transfer money?

Originally Posted by Brandon716

You're pretty much toting a hardline Conservative viewpoint, pimp. You blame all the ill's of the Harris era on Chretien? LOL That's some pretty baseless rhetoric if I've ever heard it. You've obviously got a vitriolic hatred of the Liberal party both provincially and federally. I simply disagree with the Conservative party on a lot of fronts, I wouldn't blame Harper for McGuinty's ehealth problem (I'm not looking to fill arguments from a purely ideological viewpoint as you're doing in favor of the Conservatives)... But you're going above and beyond just to say the Liberal party is the reason why the Mike Harris government was a failure. The next time a Conservative wants to blame the Mike Harris debacle on the Liberal party, I'll laugh even HARDER than I'm literally laughing at my keyboard right now.

So to sum up this above point Harris is guilty of gutting Ontario's healthcare funding, yet Chretien's cuts are "baseless rhetoric" despite the factual evidence they slashed transfers to ALL provinces starting in 1995.

Originally Posted by Brandon716

I guess it is progress that you are admitting that Mike Harris' government was a total failure.

Unlike other politicians other parties, Liberal (Trudeau, Chretien, McGuinty) NDP(Rae, Clark) and PC/CPC (Mulroney, Devine) Harris kept his word on his platform. The Common Sense Revolution was carried out verbatim to its plan, 30% tax cuts, 30% spending cuts, reforming the municipal/province funding. You can certainly disagree with it for ideological purposes, it was certainly unpopular with special interest groups like public sector unions and the poor since they were not the PCs constituency, but it was an up front agenda of how to get Ontario out of the mess it was in the 1990s. The Budget swung from a ~$17 billion deficit when Harris took over to ~$200 million surplus when he resigned, private investment and low unemployment was flourishing.

But this election isn't about Harris, its about the McGuinty government and specifically if they're worthy of another term in office. They have a financially irresponsible plan and are dishonest about how they intend to fund their spending promises (Health Premiums after 2003 that were not in the platform, HST after 2007 that was not in the platform) and if re-elected some new tax that we need for beyond 2011.

People could appreciated McGunity if he was honest and said yes I plan on raising taxes to pay for services. But of course that would hurt his re-election further and lock the PC majority that'll come in October.

[ForestryW]

Originally Posted by Pimpmasterdac

Unlike other politicians other parties, Liberal (Trudeau, Chretien, McGuinty) NDP(Rae, Clark) and PC/CPC (Mulroney, Devine) Harris kept his word on his platform. The Common Sense Revolution was carried out verbatim to its plan, 30% tax cuts, 30% spending cuts, reforming the municipal/province funding. You can certainly disagree with it for ideological purposes, it was certainly unpopular with special interest groups like public sector unions and the poor since they were not the PCs constituency, but it was an up front agenda of how to get Ontario out of the mess it was in the 1990s. The Budget swung from a ~$17 billion deficit when Harris took over to ~$200 million surplus when he resigned, private investment and low unemployment was flourishing.

But this election isn't about Harris, its about the McGuinty government and specifically if they're worthy of another term in office. They have a financially irresponsible plan and are dishonest about how they intend to fund their spending promises (Health Premiums after 2003 that were not in the platform, HST after 2007 that was not in the platform) and if re-elected some new tax that we need for beyond 2011.

People could appreciated McGunity if he was honest and said yes I plan on raising taxes to pay for services. But of course that would hurt his re-election further and lock the PC majority that'll come in October.

Let me get this straight. You're saying that because the Harris government kept its promises (which I don't think they did) that the PCs under Hudak will do the same? I don't see how you can make that assumption. Ontario is a very different place now than it was in the 90s.

Originally Posted by Brandon716

Politicians who cut services have the easy job, it is the governments that actually innovate, change, take risk, and do something that have it hard.

So true. Unfortunately what you are describing is a distinctly liberal mindset. Change, innovation and risk-taking are contrary to the most basic values of conservative ideology.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

By the way, if the Liberals are so bad, can someone explain away the subject matter of these two articles please?

http://www.thestar.com/business/arti...h-than-u-s-did

http://news.ontario.ca/opo/en/2011/0...-recovery.html