Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Andy6

It would never occur to me to say that a Franco-Manitoban who didn’t speak English all that well, or even at all, wasn’t a “Manitoban” in the fullest sense, despite any self-exclusion or isolation.

I get that but the point is rather moot. Finding a Franco-Manitoban who isn't reasonably integrated into the wider Manitoban society (including linguistically) at this point in history is akin to finding a unicorn in Riding Mountain NP.

As usual, things are bit more complicated in Quebec.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I get that but the point is rather moot. Finding a Franco-Manitoban who isn't reasonably integrated into the wider Manitoban society (including linguistically) at this point in history is akin to finding a unicorn in Riding Mountain NP.

How is that any different from an anglo living in, say, Drummondville? Even if the anglo watches the CBC News at night instead of TVA, there is probably going to be some baseline level of integration with the community where they work, shop, maybe belong to a community organization or two, etc. I guess it's possible that someone could use technology to live remotely in English Canada and seal themselves off totally from their immediate surroundings, but it strikes me as a bit unlikely.

There are people in Manitoba who live their lives mostly in Punjabi, German, Russian, Chinese, Cree and even French, but they are still considered Manitoban.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by esquire

How is that any different from an anglo living in, say, Drummondville? Even if the anglo watches the CBC News at night instead of TVA, there is probably going to be some baseline level of integration with the community where they work, shop, maybe belong to a community organization or two, etc. I guess it's possible that someone could use technology to live remotely in English Canada and seal themselves off totally from their immediate surroundings, but it strikes me as a bit unlikely.

There are people in Manitoba who live their lives mostly in Punjabi, German, Russian, Chinese, Cree and even French, but they are still considered Manitoban.

To Acajack, an anglophone resident in Quebec is free to call himself a Quebecker, but will never be considered Quebecois unless he/she makes sincere efforts to inculcate him/herself to the majority. Being a Quebecois is a state of mind. Even being able to speak decent French is not enough to make yourself Quebecois. You have to buy into the culture and mindset in order to join the club.

To use an Atlantic Canadian analogy - you will remain a "come from away." I used to half jokingly say that an immigrant to PEI would remain a CFA until the seventh generation. I don't think this is so much the case now as it used to be, but in the old days, a lot of value used to be placed on ones physical connections to the Island, and to the Island's traditions and heritage. This isn't to say that one couldn't eventually become an "Islander." For example there is a large Lebanese community on PEI. They've been there for well over 100 years. There have been Lebanese-Canadians who have been Mayor of Charlottetown and Premier(s) of PEI. They have been adopted by the Island community and are considered one of "us".

So, this isn't just a Quebec problem. A lot of insular societies have similar world views. Just as Islanders have adopted their Lebanese community, so have the Quebecois with (selected) anglophones. The adoption process in Quebec however is highly selective, and I doubt that more than 1-3% of anglo-Quebeckers are also considered Quebecois.

How about it Acajack? What percentage of Quebeckers do you think are also considered Quebecois???

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

To Acajack, an anglophone resident in Quebec is free to call himself a Quebecker, but will never be considered Quebecois unless he/she makes sincere efforts to inculcate him/herself to the majority. Being a Quebecois is a state of mind. Even being able to speak decent French is not enough to make yourself Quebecois. You have to buy into the culture and mindset in order to join the club.

To use an Atlantic Canadian analogy - you will remain a "come from away." I used to half jokingly say that an immigrant to PEI would remain a CFA until the seventh generation. I don't think this is so much the case now as it used to be, but in the old days, a lot of value used to be placed on ones physical connections to the Island, and to the Island's traditions and heritage. This isn't to say that one couldn't eventually become an "Islander." For example there is a large Lebanese community on PEI. They've been there for well over 100 years. There have been Lebanese-Canadians who have been Mayor of Charlottetown and Premier(s) of PEI. They have been adopted by the Island community and are considered one of "us".

So, this isn't just a Quebec problem. A lot of insular societies have similar world views. Just as Islanders have adopted their Lebanese community, so have the Quebecois with (selected) anglophones. The adoption process in Quebec however is highly selective, and I doubt that more than 1-3% of anglo-Quebeckers are also considered Quebecois.

How about it Acajack? What percentage of Quebeckers do you think are also considered Quebecois???

very good post. You have articulated my thoughts much more clearly than I have been able to.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

To Acajack, an anglophone resident in Quebec is free to call himself a Quebecker, but will never be considered Quebecois unless he/she makes sincere efforts to inculcate him/herself to the majority. Being a Quebecois is a state of mind. Even being able to speak decent French is not enough to make yourself Quebecois. You have to buy into the culture and mindset in order to join the club.

To use an Atlantic Canadian analogy - you will remain a "come from away." I used to half jokingly say that an immigrant to PEI would remain a CFA until the seventh generation. I don't think this is so much the case now as it used to be, but in the old days, a lot of value used to be placed on ones physical connections to the Island, and to the Island's traditions and heritage. This isn't to say that one couldn't eventually become an "Islander." For example there is a large Lebanese community on PEI. They've been there for well over 100 years. There have been Lebanese-Canadians who have been Mayor of Charlottetown and Premier(s) of PEI. They have been adopted by the Island community and are considered one of "us".

So, this isn't just a Quebec problem. A lot of insular societies have similar world views. Just as Islanders have adopted their Lebanese community, so have the Quebecois with (selected) anglophones. The adoption process in Quebec however is highly selective, and I doubt that more than 1-3% of anglo-Quebeckers are also considered Quebecois.

How about it Acajack? What percentage of Quebeckers do you think are also considered Quebecois???

Well, 99% of Anglo-Quebecers aren't public figures like the ones I rattled off.

In terms of being considered Québécois by their immediate entourage? It's certainly much higher than 1-3%.

I have people I know who have English names like Jill Smith who speak unaccented French. It's hard to tell if they're actually anglophones (even if bilingual) or if they're simply francophones with an anglo name.

Human identities can be quite fluid and not necessarily clear-cut.

I think Begratto or GreaterMontréal once mentioned that one's accent in French was a major determinant. I think that that's what people would use if you pressed them with a question. Though there are many exceptions of course to the accent rule, and if someone is well integrated but with an accent, they'll be considered Québécois as well. Note that someone originally from France but with a Parisian accent might not be considered Québécois either, whereas Mike Bossy who speaks fluent Québécois hockey rink French with an anglo accent and makes the occasional mistake, is considered Québécois by everyone.

And there isn't really a "political mindset" threshold to be met either. I have no idea of what Mike Bossy's political views are on independence, Bill 21, the future of the French language. And neither does anyone else.

Mike Bossy and Georges Laraque are considered Québécois because they sound like Québécois and act like Québécois.

You know one when you "see" (sic) one.

Good post BTW.

[MolsonExport]

because they sound like Québécois and act like Québécois.

otherwise you are "out"

according to those who not only have an advantage in said criteria as bestowed from birth, but are also judge, jury and executioner with respect to ascertaining whether others pass whatever bar they want to set (note that the bar can be very conveniently raised or lowered depending on whether the "de souche" crowd perceives they might gain an advantage by being inclusionary or exclusionary).

Sounds a bit like those famous Anglos (e.g., the apocryphal fat english saleslady at Eaton's) asking Québécois to "Speak White"

[JHikka]

Since we're, ahem, on this subject, and to keep this relatively on topic:

[wave46]

Originally Posted by someone123

This is true too. There are a lot of "alternate history" scenarios that would have changed things a lot with only small differences. Geographically the Maritimes are a part of the Eastern Seabord, not the St. Lawrence and Great Lakes.

Another possibility would have been if Maritime Union happened (the original plan that became Canada). The Maritimes could have joined Canada or the US later.

The border between the United States and most of Canada was always more a political idea than geographic reality.

Quebec and Ontario had more 'natural borders' bounded by language and lakes/rivers, but one never would have built a railway east-west across the Canadian Shield to get to the Prairies. You would have built that west across the Plains had you not been encumbered by silly lines on a map.

Fortunately for us, the United States was distracted whilst our nation came into being. We had leaders who had the vision for something better. Flawed, sure, but gazing too far into 'what if' territory - while a fun thought experiment - leads to much more fanciful visions than reality usually gives.

When I look back at the choices I made in life 'What if?' always seems like I could have done better in hindsight. However, I could have done much worse too.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In terms of being considered Québécois by their immediate entourage? It's certainly much higher than 1-3%.

I'd imagine many of those who weren't willing to made part of the Québécois clan have self-selected out of the province by the mid-1990s.

I can't see more than a small percentage remaining, simply because being a "foreigner" in day-to-day life is an alienating experience. Aside from a few holdout areas in Montreal and some of Gatineau, why stay?

It's kind of like being an ex-pat in your own country. Either you go native or leave.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

otherwise you are "out"

according to those who not only have an advantage in said criteria as bestowed from birth, but are also judge, jury and executioner with respect to ascertaining whether others pass whatever bar they want to set (note that the bar can be very conveniently raised or lowered depending on whether the "de souche" crowd perceives they might gain an advantage by being inclusionary or exclusionary).

Sounds a bit like those famous Anglos (e.g., the apocryphal fat english saleslady at Eaton's) asking Québécois to "Speak White"

Regarding "birthright" Québécois...

Mike Bossy was born to an "English" mother and a Polish father who integrated into Montreal's anglo community as everyone did back in the day. Bossy was born in 1957 so 20 years before Bill 101. He grew up in north end Montreal and Laval, and went to English schools all his life. He spent 10 years in NY when he played for the Islanders.

Actress Marina Orsini who is roughly my age and MolsonEx's was born in SW Montreal to an Italian father (who spoke mostly English of course) and a Scottish mother. She went to James Lyng High School. At the pinnacle of her career she was the go-to actress for "Quebec Gothic" classic TV shows and movies set in rural Quebec featuring a "French" (sic) origin woman in leading roles.

No one in their right mind would say that Marina Orsini is not a real Québécoise.

I didn't make this society, but I do have a pretty good grasp of what makes it tick. It's not really very different from any other when it comes to this stuff.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wave46

I'd imagine many of those who weren't willing to made part of the Québécois clan have self-selected out of the province by the mid-1990s.

I can't see more than a small percentage remaining, simply because being a "foreigner" in day-to-day life is an alienating experience. Aside from a few holdout areas in Montreal and some of Gatineau, why stay?

It's kind of like being an ex-pat in your own country. Either you go native or leave.

Or at the very least meet the "natives" (sic) half-way.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Or at the very least meet the "natives" (sic) half-way.

It was a poor choice of words, I admit, but captured the spirit I was going for.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I didn't make this society, but I do have a pretty good grasp of what makes it tick. It's not really very different from any other when it comes to this stuff.

YOU have a pretty good grasp, but I, as a native-born Quebec -ker (not -cois, with the requisite accents, apparently) don't?

Do you understand how patronizing that sounds?

Perhaps I could go over to England and tell native-born folk like Sajid Javid* "what it is to be English"; after all, I got the English-sounding name, an impeccable (if not Canadian) command of the language, and dammit some of my folk are old-stock English, never mind that I wasn't born there.

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sajid_Javid

You know one when you "see" (sic) one.

Who is "You"?

[JHikka]

Acajack is like the Hogwarts sorting hat of Quebec. He's gonna tell you what tent you're in and you're gonna like it.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

How is that any different from an anglo living in, say, Drummondville? Even if the anglo watches the CBC News at night instead of TVA, there is probably going to be some baseline level of integration with the community where they work, shop, maybe belong to a community organization or two, etc. I guess it's possible that someone could use technology to live remotely in English Canada and seal themselves off totally from their immediate surroundings, but it strikes me as a bit unlikely.

There are people in Manitoba who live their lives mostly in Punjabi, German, Russian, Chinese, Cree and even French, but they are still considered Manitoban.

There aren't many anglos in Drummondville and even fewer who don't speak French.

But still, do you know what the percentage of unilingual anglos in Quebec City is? It's around 15%.

That's not exactly unicorn territory.

The area of Gatineau where I live isn't as homogenously francophone as Quebec City is, but it's still close to 90%. I have lived here for 20 years and there are people I know (not personally, but that I recognize) who still respond with a semi-flustered "what's that?" to bus drivers and grocery store clerks who greet them with a "bonjour".

And they've been living here for as long as I have. Some of them I took the bus with most every day for 10-15 years.

You could drop me in the middle of Thailand and within a fairly short time I'd have the basics of everyday communication down pat. Wouldn't you?

BTW, if these people want to do this, it's fine. But it's a bit rich after that to complain that people don't view them as fully Québécois and part of the "us". Especially when you have so many other people (often with greater challenges) who put in so much effort to integrate.

So yeah, things are a given when it comes to who is "Manitoban" in Manitoba for a reason. There are also reasons for the way things are in Quebec as well.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Acajack is like the Hogwarts sorting hat of Quebec. He's gonna tell you what tent you're in and you're gonna like it.

No, you choose what house you're in. But don't complain when you choose to wear a Ravenclaw jersey if people might question your claim to belonging to Gryffindor.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

YOU have a pretty good grasp, but I, as a native-born Quebec -ker (not -cois, with the requisite accents, apparently) don't?

Do you understand how patronizing that sounds?

Perhaps I could go over to England and tell native-born folk like Sajid Javid* "what it is to be English"; after all, I got the English-sounding name, an impeccable (if not Canadian) command of the language, and dammit some of my folk are old-stock English, never mind that I wasn't born there.

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sajid_Javid



Who is "You"?

You are entitled to your opinion just like anyone else.

[MolsonExport]

except you are passing off your opinion as the de jure definition.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

except you are passing off your opinion as the de jure definition.

I am simply saying: "that's my take on the way most people see things here".

If some of you think I am wrong, be my guest.

I think I have substantiated my assertions quite sufficiently (perhaps too much even!) but if people want to make another case, I'd expect more than just "you're full of shit" (or equivalent) as a rebuttal.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But still, do you know what the percentage of unilingual anglos in Quebec City is? It's around 15%

I find this very hard to believe. I've been to QC a half dozen times, and outside the tourism zone in the old walled city, it's pretty rare to ever hear any English spoken. Where are all these anglophones hiding??

There would be a few up in Val Cartier because of the army base, to be sure, but it would be very difficult for a unilingual anglophone to make a go of it anywhere in the vraie capitale without starving to death.