VIA Rail

[TorontoDrew]

Imagine we had a rolling stock like this?

• Video Link

[kool maudit]

You know, VIA's revenue is 2.8 billion SEK vs. 7.8 bn SEK for SJ. SJ, however, handled 31.8m passengers in 2018 vs. 4.4 million for VIA.

It also has a much busier schedule and way more service. VIA apparently receives $2 in subsidies for every $1 received from customers; I'm not sure how SJ works.

[niwell]

I travel with VIA between Toronto and Ottawa fairly often and it's a mixed bag. Generally I find that the schedules are off by 5-10 minutes, however once one delay occurs they begin cascading. I remember leaving Toronto an hour earlier than a friend and beating them to Fallowfield station because our train was on time and received priority. Unfortunately been on that delayed train a few times...

The payment system was annoying as hell but thankfully supposed to be updated now. Wish they had better drink offerings as the only craft beer last time was Beau's, but according to some friends in the industry that has to do with bilingual labeling requirements. The waiting corrals are also annoying but since I rarely travel with large bags I don't bother standing in line anymore. Wifi also sucks.

I always check and see if there are deals on first class as it's MUCH better - occasionally it's only $20 or so more than economy which is made up for with free drinks / meals. Though I was a bit flabbergasted once when I asked if I could have a beer with my meal instead of wine and was told that no, I absolutely could not!

Right now it's world's better than the bus, but that's not saying much. During busy periods (Xmas, for instance) I try and use Porter unless the price differential is just too much to justify. If they do manage to improve service speeds and timeline reliability at the current price point I would always stick with the train.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by niwell

I travel with VIA between Toronto and Ottawa fairly often and it's a mixed bag. Generally I find that the schedules are off by 5-10 minutes, however once one delay occurs they begin cascading.

If they do manage to improve service speeds and timeline reliability at the current price point I would always stick with the train.

If you check on Via's arrivals and departures most trains have been running on time since the rail strike at CN, including even the Canadian. It shows you how little capacity there is for passenger trains on the host railways.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by niwell

. Wish they had better drink offerings as the only craft beer last time was Beau's, but according to some friends in the industry that has to do with bilingual labeling requirements. .

That sounds very surprising.

Interprovincial trade regulations require a bare minimum of bilingual labelling if a product is to be sold in more than one province. What it generally means is you need to have what it is (BEER - BIÈRE) and maybe some info on ingredients and especially allergens. So pretty much anyone who produces anything beyond an extremely local market is going to have at least some bilingual wording on their products. Since VIA buys its stuff in the "corridor" most any even moderately-sized craft beer op in Ontario and Quebec is going to want to have the opportunity (even if theoretical in some cases) to sell their stuff in the province right next door. So there is zero chance that Beau's is the only craft beer that meets this requirement.

So there are literally dozens of craft beers that would fit the bill, as almost all of them probably already have bilingual labels.

And even so, I don't know what particular rule VIA might have, but on Air Canada if you're on a plane that might have made an international fight during the day, it's not uncommon to be served products like yogourt, Coke or snacks, that are only labelled in English, or only in French, or only in Dutch, or only in Spanish, as they often stock up in the cities where they're stopped for a while.

[gunnar777]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That sounds very surprising.

Interprovincial trade regulations require a bare minimum of bilingual labelling if a product is to be sold in more than one province. What it generally means is you need to have what it is (BEER - BIÈRE) and maybe some info on ingredients and especially allergens. So pretty much anyone who produces anything beyond an extremely local market is going to have at least some bilingual wording on their products. Since VIA buys its stuff in the "corridor" most any even moderately-sized craft beer op in Ontario and Quebec is going to want to have the opportunity (even if theoretical in some cases) to sell their stuff in the province right next door. So there is zero chance that Beau's is the only craft beer that meets this requirement.

So there are literally dozens of craft beers that would fit the bill, as almost all of them probably already have bilingual labels.

And even so, I don't know what particular rule VIA might have, but on Air Canada if you're on a plane that might have made an international fight during the day, it's not uncommon to be served products like yogourt, Coke or snacks, that are only labelled in English, or only in French, or only in Dutch, or only in Spanish, as they often stock up in the cities where they're stopped for a while.

You would think so, but if you've been into an LCBO in Toronto lately, you'd notice that it seems on-trend for the local craft brewers to have English-only labels on beer. Because I'm a nerd about this stuff, I usually buy the craft beer brands with French on the label. There are plenty of Franco-Ontarians, 100% of Canadians start becoming bilingual by reading the side of their cereal boxes, and it just seems déclassé of these local breweries to exclude French from their beer. Keeping French in the "ROC" also takes separatist wind out of the sails of incels like Yves-François Blanchet

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by gunnar777

You would think so, but if you've been into an LCBO in Toronto lately, you'd notice that it seems on-trend for the local craft brewers to have English-only labels on beer. Because I'm a nerd about this stuff, I usually buy the craft beer brands with French on the label. There are plenty of Franco-Ontarians, 100% of Canadians start becoming bilingual by reading the side of their cereal boxes, and it just seems déclassé of these local breweries to exclude French from their beer. Keeping French in the "ROC" also takes separatist wind out of the sails of incels like Yves-François Blanchet

Not sure about "déclassé". If their marketting research showed that bilingual labelling would take their image upmarket, as compared to English-only labelling, one assumes they'd have bilingual labelling.

[TorontoDrew]

Do local Quebec Breweries also do French and English labels? I would think in Ontario French and English by law need to be on the cans. I'm going to look into this next time I get something from one off the breweries in my hood.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

Do local Quebec Breweries also do French and English labels? I would think in Ontario French and English by law need to be on the cans. I'm going to look into this next time I get something from one off the breweries in my hood.

It is not actually law in Ontario though I couldn't tell you the exact reasons. From what I can tell the only requirement approaching bilingualism for a SKU in the LCBO is labeling of "Beer / Biere" at the bottom of the can, ingredients (which for beer is not exhaustive), alcohol percentage and the small text regarding return for refund - the rest can be entirely English. If you are selling from your own facility that isn't even necessary.

I can ask my friend for more details as he's intimately familiar with the tiniest of details on this matter.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

Do local Quebec Breweries also do French and English labels? I would think in Ontario French and English by law need to be on the cans. I'm going to look into this next time I get something from one off the breweries in my hood.

It seems that most microbrews in both Quebec and Ontario limit themselves to the absolute basics in terms of bilingualism (ie BEER / BIÈRE or BEER /BIÈRE). The cardboard box it comes in might also have a black and white nutrition facts box which is by default bilingual.

Generally speaking though the "story" of the beer on a bottle or a can is in one language only. There are some exceptions but not that many really. Space is fairly limited and for many Quebec at least, there is sometimes a somewhat long-winded story about what local legend or folk tale inspired the beer, or a bio of the person that the beer is named for.

I checked the two main microbreweries here in Gatineau and their labelling (aside from the requisite BIÈRE / BEER) is all only in French, and we are right next to Ottawa/Ontario. Even the type of beer is only in French, as in "Blonde de style belge". Though I suppose it's not that hard to figure out...

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Acajack

So there are literally dozens of craft beers that would fit the bill, as almost all of them probably already have bilingual labels.

You would think so, but that's not actually the case. I'm most familiar with the Ontario market, but the largest craft brewers outside of Quebec tend to have English only labels and have generally eschewed the Quebec market. The reason for this has more to do with inter-provincial trade regulations and SAQ tariffs on non-Quebec beer though - the monolingual labeling is the end result. Essentially you need to pay a premium or set up a production facility within Quebec to do so. Not worth it when most small brewers are focused on the local markets or focus on other jurisdictions.

For instance, Collective Arts skipped the Quebec market entirely and are focusing on the rest of Canada and the US (they just opened a production facility in NYC). Bellwoods is exporting their shelf stable beers to the US and other provinces as well. Others I can think of are actually experimenting with the Nova Scotia market, as it's not too difficult to get SKUs in the NSLC. IIRC Beau's actually has a production deal with Les Brasseurs du Nord which is why they can distribute in Quebec.

With respect to VIA, it's my understanding they are fairly strict on the labeling point, though it may have something to do with difference in how train and air travel sales are treated. Ace Hill is on Porter airlines for instance and they do not have bilingual labeling, unless there are special cans made specifically for those flights. Also VIA apparently is just difficult to deal with. Somewhat coincidentally I actually talked about this with a close friend who used to be head of retail sales for one of the larger craft breweries in Ontario and that's more or less what he had to say on the subject.

This is from an Ontario perspective of course, not sure what the situation is in other provinces. Aside from the occasional Dieu Du Ciel and Trou du Diable it's very difficult to find actual Quebec craft beer here, and Unibroue no longer counts. That being said, given VIA's abysmal service outside the two big provinces I can't see why any craft brewer from elsewhere in the country would even be interested in selling to them!

[esquire]

As a prairie resident, I can tell you VIA is pretty much irrelevant here.

When I was a student 15 years ago, I used to occasionally take VIA to go between Winnipeg and Edmonton. In those days, I would board at night, sleep on the train, and arrive the next morning. It was very leisurely and comfortable. I can't remember the exact travel time but it was about 13 or 14 hours or so... roughly on par with driving in terms of speed.

Today the same trip takes 24 hours, 20 minutes. And it is not uncommon for the train to be a couple of hours late on top of that.

Someone could literally drive an entire round trip between Winnipeg and Edmonton in the time it takes for the train to make it just one way.

Who in their right mind would put up with that when they could fly for one or two hundred bucks and be there in under three hours?

At that point you have to ask why even bother with it.

[hipster duck]

VIA is a lost cause and should be dismantled.

Each province should run passenger rail; in some places they actually have teeth. Metrolinx has been buying up lines and making more improvements to the rail network around the GTA than VIA ever could. They’re starting to horn into VIA’s turf now with service to KW and Niagara Falls. Let them take over all Ontario services. Let the Quebec government take over the Quebec City-Montreal service. I’m sure they could get the CDPQi to invest in the project and actually make it decent. The Canadian and Atlantic can become private tourist trains. The Churchill, White River and Seneterre trains can be run by their respective provinces or the Ministry of Northern Affairs.

VIA just can’t run a railroad. I know that they’re subordinate to the interests of the private freight companies that own the tracks, but other organizations that were former pariahs have found the leadership and the strategy to stop being such punching bags.

Canada is a decentralized federation of highly independent provinces, and the provinces already have complete control over the highway networks, so I think control over passenger rail should be a natural fit.

Other bonus: now Albertans can decide if they want to run their own Edmonton-Calgary service and New Brunswick and Nova Scotia can decide if they want to run a Halifax-Moncton service without feeling alienated by a Federal agency that essentially only “serves” Ontario and Quebec.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

VIA is a lost cause and should be dismantled.

Each province should run passenger rail; in some places they actually have teeth. Metrolinx has been buying up lines and making more improvements to the rail network around the GTA than VIA ever could. They’re starting to horn into VIA’s turf now with service to KW and Niagara Falls. Let them take over all Ontario services. Let the Quebec government take over the Quebec City-Montreal service. I’m sure they could get the CDPQi to invest in the project and actually make it decent. The Canadian and Atlantic can become private tourist trains. The Churchill, White River and Seneterre trains can be run by their respective provinces or the Ministry of Northern Affairs.

VIA just can’t run a railroad. I know that they’re subordinate to the interests of the private freight companies that own the tracks, but other organizations that were former pariahs have found the leadership and the strategy to stop being such punching bags.

Canada is a decentralized federation of highly independent provinces, and the provinces already have complete control over the highway networks, so I think control over passenger rail should be a natural fit.

Other bonus: now Albertans can decide if they want to run their own Edmonton-Calgary service and New Brunswick and Nova Scotia can decide if they want to run a Halifax-Moncton service without feeling alienated by a Federal agency that essentially only “serves” Ontario and Quebec.

I'm not sure that decentralizing it will fix things as it is lack of proper infrastructure that is really the problem here. As long as the lines are choked with mile long freight trains lumbering along at 90 km/h, I don't know how you can really hope to correct the situation.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by esquire

I'm not sure that decentralizing it will fix things as it is lack of proper infrastructure that is really the problem here. As long as the lines are choked with mile long freight trains lumbering along at 90 km/h, I don't know how you can really hope to correct the situation.

CN is a big problem too. In Halifax the municipality wanted to do commuter rail (along a route that was built by the public long ago before being privatized through a series of short-sighted blunders). All of the meetings had to be in camera, and the councillors couldn't really discuss anything publicly, but they suggested that CN was completely inflexible about schedules and their fee structure. CN is a publicly traded company and the biggest shareholder is Bill Gates. The stock's done great over the last couple decades, so at least Canadian taxpayers have contributed to something by selling off their infrastructure!

I think the railways themselves should be publicly run because they are a natural monopoly. The users could be private or public, and should bid on track time and priorities. All of the bidding and scheduling should be public information.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think the railways themselves should be publicly run because they are a natural monopoly. The users could be private or public, and should bid on track time and priorities. All of the bidding and scheduling should be public information.

Or at least the stretches of railway that are of public interest such as in/around metro areas or major routes between them. I agree with esquire in that we need an overall capacity increase if we're to accommodate both passenger and freight in an efficient manner and that having both is in the public interest even if one is technically private. If there case where private business is simply being obstinate and not making any attempt to accommodate public use because they have no business incentive to do it, then creating policy that compels them is warranted. But I suspect that cases such as the Corridor simply require investment in greater infrastructure quality/capacity. I mean, how much have the railroads really been upgraded over the decades in conjunction with the country's growth in population and economy?

[Mister F]

It's a shame that Canada allowed itself to become one of the few countries in the world where the vast majority of the rail system is privately owned and where private companies call the shots. But that reality isn't going to change. GO Transit and Via Rail have realized this and are now operating on the assumption that they have to own and control any corridor that's going to see competitive and reliable rail service. Between GO undertaking a massive expansion on the lines they now own and Via's HFR, we're effectively building a publicly owned passenger rail system from scratch. Add to that the rapid transit expansions in Montreal and smaller cities throughout the Corridor, and we're working towards a rail system that, at least in this part of the country, can hold its own with the likes of Sweden.

If that happens, similar investments on a smaller scale in other parts of the country will be more likely.

Originally Posted by jawagord

Other than Canada and Sweden are both countries with trains what else is comparable? Sweden is tiny geographically compared to Canada. Distance and travel time are big determinants on whether passenger trains are successful versus planes and cars. In Canada our train system is most effective as a freight moving system not a people moving system. This isn’t going to change by throwing more money at Via. Much smarter to fund high volume intra-city passenger train service like LRT and metro heavy rail.

https://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/coun.../canada/sweden

Others have responded to this but it's worth repeating: Sweden is not tiny geographically compared to the Windsor-Quebec Corridor. Even the most populated southern part of Sweden has about half the population density of the Corridor. Canadians have this counterproductive self image that we're uniquely spread out when the reality is that most of us are concentrated into a few relatively densely populated regions.

[gunnar777]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

VIA is a lost cause and should be dismantled.

Each province should run passenger rail; in some places they actually have teeth. Metrolinx has been buying up lines and making more improvements to the rail network around the GTA than VIA ever could. They’re starting to horn into VIA’s turf now with service to KW and Niagara Falls. Let them take over all Ontario services. Let the Quebec government take over the Quebec City-Montreal service. I’m sure they could get the CDPQi to invest in the project and actually make it decent. The Canadian and Atlantic can become private tourist trains. The Churchill, White River and Seneterre trains can be run by their respective provinces or the Ministry of Northern Affairs.

VIA just can’t run a railroad. I know that they’re subordinate to the interests of the private freight companies that own the tracks, but other organizations that were former pariahs have found the leadership and the strategy to stop being such punching bags.

Canada is a decentralized federation of highly independent provinces, and the provinces already have complete control over the highway networks, so I think control over passenger rail should be a natural fit.

Other bonus: now Albertans can decide if they want to run their own Edmonton-Calgary service and New Brunswick and Nova Scotia can decide if they want to run a Halifax-Moncton service without feeling alienated by a Federal agency that essentially only “serves” Ontario and Quebec.

Mm yes great, just what Canada needs, even more decentralization

I suppose that replicating the administrative side of VIA several times over would also help? Look at Australia - their suburban rail is excellent and generations ahead of Canada's. Their state-run intercity rail services, not so much.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by gunnar777

Mm yes great, just what Canada needs, even more decentralization

I suppose that replicating the administrative side of VIA several times over would also help? Look at Australia - their suburban rail is excellent and generations ahead of Canada's. Their state-run intercity rail services, not so much.

Yes, Canada needs more decentralization... but not in the case of VIA Rail. This is a perfect example of a pan-Canadian infrastructure that needs to be manages at the federal level.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

VIA is a lost cause and should be dismantled.

Other bonus: now Albertans can decide if they want to run their own Edmonton-Calgary service and New Brunswick and Nova Scotia can decide if they want to run a Halifax-Moncton service without feeling alienated by a Federal agency that essentially only “serves” Ontario and Quebec.

It is not Via that has cut services, it is the government of the day that has ordered Via to cut services. There is nothing stopping provinces from subsidizing passenger rail services now. In fact, Ontario once paid for several frequencies that were operated by Via in SW Ontario at one time. Ontario also subsidized the Northland and the Northlander for many years and may do so again. The problem comes when the railways want to abandon lines and the federal government has no interest in maintaining the lines because the abandonment is often partially caused by the cut backs forced upon Via Rail. The government of the day's position is if there are no tracks then the problem of providing rail service or listening to the public goes away.

The provinces will not provide intercity rail funding, especially when the route is an interprovincial route. The provinces have to maintain the roads even though the federal government cannot find money for Via but it can still find money for interprovincial roads. What is missing is a balance in funding for different modes.