Mississauga & Brampton: Hurontario-Main LRT

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by osmo

Good for Peel Region. This project and the K-W LRT project is going to make Toronto look very stupid very soon. I'm happy cities are warming up to LRT, this looks great.

No it is not because Metrolinx just released a study showing that fully grade separated transit in Toronto(not LRT in the middle of the road) is going to attract vastly more people to transit, and double ridership in the peak direction per hour.

[feepa]

^ link to study?

[osmo]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

No it is not because Metrolinx just released a study showing that fully grade separated transit in Toronto(not LRT in the middle of the road) is going to attract vastly more people to transit, and double ridership in the peak direction per hour.

You inflate stuff man. The increase is mostly coming from demand shifts from the Bloor-Danforth + The already clogged Bus lines. This route will still require a crap load of buses to burn down Eglinton to provide local service since station spacing will be so vast. Where does the Crosstown line go? Is it simply just a funnel to dump riders onto the already bloated Yonge line? Like seriously this is a lexus line, we sacrificed to much just to have this thing go under ground the whole way through. Toronto will be proven dumb by abandoning a full network for this long stump. The rest of the GTA and KW are doing it right.

Metrolinx has little credibility, I cant take a regional transit agency seriously that can get a accessible rapid transit link to the regions Airport. The Crosstown line goes nowhere. big box stores and SRT wastelands, this will do little to generate the development that a above-ground line would.

[bardak]

[Deleted] Sorry I thought this was the thread for new line in Toronto

[miketoronto]

Eglinton is already getting development without a subway line. And it will only increase with the subway.

Anyway LRT will be good for Hurontario.
I do think that with the land out in Peel, they should just bite the bullet and build Hurontario as fully grade separated LRT. It could run along the side of Hurontario, elevated.

Now this is the LRT Mississauga should have.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2gGl...eature=related

[goodthings]

I think Mississauga sees congestion as the only solution for congestion. Obviously, it is brutally dangerous crossing a 6-lane arterial in an autocentric suburb, right? Reducing it to 4 lanes will make a more pedestrian-friendly experience, like what Spadina Avenue is right now. So, they went forward with surface LRT instead.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by goodthings

I think Mississauga sees congestion as the only solution for congestion. Obviously, it is brutally dangerous crossing a 6-lane arterial in an autocentric suburb, right? Reducing it to 4 lanes will make a more pedestrian-friendly experience, like what Spadina Avenue is right now. So, they went forward with surface LRT instead.

"Brutally dangerous" crossing Hurontario? That's a bit of an exaggeration, no?

Hurontario is actually 7-8 lanes wide at pedestrian crossing but it is hardly "brutally dangerous", otherwise the corridor wouldn't have 28,000 riders per weekday, making it one of the busiest bus corridors out there. We're talking about a street way out in the suburbs that has up to 3 minute bus frequencies on average here...

It's not as harsh a pedestrian environment as you suggest, but nonetheless I agree the LRT will make it a lot better for pedestrians.

I think LRT is right for Hurontario. LRT is not right for Sheppard or Eglinton. You have consider the corridor, the transit system itself, the actual context. There's no universally better mode of transit, you have to consider all options, regular bus, BRT, LRT, subway, etc.

Btw, there is now wikipedia page for this LRT, check it out, it is a good summary:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurontario-Main_Street_LRT

[lrt's friend]

There has to be a cost-benefit analysis to determine the right choice of transit on a corridor. The natural transition from frequent bus service is to surface LRT in a reserved corridor. To move directly to a totally grade separated right of way may have such a price tag that the project can become totally unaffordable. The route may have to be severely truncated losing much of the benefit.

In the case of Toronto, with such high transit demand, there is a real argument that trunk lines should be subways. On the other hand, secondary lines could benefit from being surface LRT.

Elevated railways are expensive and very difficult to integrate into an urban environment without creating negative impacts.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Elevated railways are expensive and very difficult to integrate into an urban environment without creating negative impacts.

Vancouver and Chicago seem to do it very well, as do countless other cities.

[Justin10000]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Vancouver and Chicago seem to do it very well, as do countless other cities.

The majority of Skytrain's elevated sections run along rail corridors, with a few km of running along streets. Ironically the ridership for the Millenium Line, which has much of the street running sections hasn't really met it's ridership projections.

LRT's Friend: To pay for this one underground LRT line, 2 surface LRT lines that would have provided service to many more neighbourhoods have been canceled. For the price of 52km of surface LRT, we're getting one 19km underground line with 6km of surface running in an existing. Definitely not bang for your buck, especially considering Eglinton can easily handle surface LRT with speeds nearly equaling an underground line.

Peel is doing a good job with the LRT line. I hope this gets built, so Toronto can see the benefits of surface rail. We should not be build underground lines in low density corridors where demand doesn't warrant it.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Justin10000

The majority of Skytrain's elevated sections run along rail corridors, with a few km of running along streets. Ironically the ridership for the Millenium Line, which has much of the street running sections hasn't really met it's ridership projections.

LRT's Friend: To pay for this one underground LRT line, 2 surface LRT lines that would have provided service to many more neighbourhoods have been canceled. For the price of 52km of surface LRT, we're getting one 19km underground line with 6km of surface running in an existing. Definitely not bang for your buck, especially considering Eglinton can easily handle surface LRT with speeds nearly equaling an underground line.

Peel is doing a good job with the LRT line. I hope this gets built, so Toronto can see the benefits of surface rail. We should not be build underground lines in low density corridors where demand doesn't warrant it.

This is all part of the cost-benefit analysis. There is no perfect answer here. Of course, a subway is going to cost way more and you have to wonder what will happen when a Conservative provincial government comes into power in the fall. Will anything get built?

We are facing the same dilemma here in Ottawa with the proposed subway. We replaced a 30km surface LRT line, mostly in an exclusive right of way with 12km LRT line that includes a 3km subway at more than double the cost (so far).

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by Justin10000

The majority of Skytrain's elevated sections run along rail corridors, with a few km of running along streets. Ironically the ridership for the Millenium Line, which has much of the street running sections hasn't really met it's ridership projections.

This is not due to the lines path. The lackluster transit usage rates and ridership in Vancouver has more to due with the regions decentralization plans. When everything is decentralized, transit is harder to use.

LRT's Friend: To pay for this one underground LRT line, 2 surface LRT lines that would have provided service to many more neighbourhoods have been canceled. For the price of 52km of surface LRT, we're getting one 19km underground line with 6km of surface running in an existing. Definitely not bang for your buck,

I guess we should have never built the subway under Yonge. We could have gotten more KM of streetcars for the price of that subway tunnel.

especially considering Eglinton can easily handle surface LRT with speeds nearly equaling an underground line.

As the Metrolinx plan shows, this is not the case. The fully grade separated plan has vastly higher speeds, which is what is attracting the additional ridership.

In street LRT can never approach the speeds of fully grad separated transit, as the median separations can still be breached by cars and people.

Peel is doing a good job with the LRT line. I hope this gets built, so Toronto can see the benefits of surface rail. We should not be build underground lines in low density corridors where demand doesn't warrant it.

[/quote]

Clearly the demand warrants fully grade separated transit. 300,000 riders a day(and we know it will be higher) is you can bet is big.

For your information, the 300,000 riders a day on the Eglinton line, is vastly higher than any of the Transit City routes would every carry, even though many are vastly longer.
And this is because in the middle of the road LRT just can't provide the speed that attracts choice riders.

We are seeing this with the Hurontario LRT. 100,000 projected daily riders. That is a tiny number for a corridor that is over 25 km long, and is the centre of the western suburbs. Actually that kind of ridership is pretty pathetic, and the modal shares in Peel will still be low.

This is because people can drive between the two points they want to go in 15 minutes, vs a one hour LRT ride.

At the end of the day, transit is in competition with other modes. If a transit authority and planners do not understand this, transit will continue to fail.
You must provide a service that competes with the car, or it is doomed for failure.
GO Transit understands this and it is in their mandate to compete with the car.
The other transit agencies still don't seem to understand this.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Clearly the demand warrants fully grade separated transit. 300,000 riders a day(and we know it will be higher) is you can bet is big.

For your information, the 300,000 riders a day on the Eglinton line, is vastly higher than any of the Transit City routes would every carry, even though many are vastly longer.
And this is because in the middle of the road LRT just can't provide the speed that attracts choice riders.

We are seeing this with the Hurontario LRT. 100,000 projected daily riders. That is a tiny number for a corridor that is over 25 km long, and is the centre of the western suburbs. Actually that kind of ridership is pretty pathetic, and the modal shares in Peel will still be low.

This is because people can drive between the two points they want to go in 15 minutes, vs a one hour LRT ride.

Ummm....

1. The Hurontario-Main LRT will be 22km long from end to end.

2. The new Eglinton LRT will 25.2km long from end to end.

3. The projected daily ridership of the Hurontario-Main LRT is 121,000. This is four times higher than the current ridership of the Hurontario corridor.

4. Most of the ridership increase of the new Eglinton LRT (compared to the old LRT plan) are existing riders from the Bloor-Danforth subway and Scarborough RT.

5. The old Eglinton LRT was already partly underground. The Scarbrough RT is already currently grade-separated.

6. The average speed of Hurontario-Main LRT will be the same as the Bloor-Danforth subway line in Toronto.

7. Part of the Eglinton LRT serves an inner city environment.

8. The Hurontario-Main LRT serves the outer suburbs, and will run through a huge industrial area where residential development is prohibited due to proximity to the airport.

9. The Eglinton LRT will connect to 3 subway lines.

10. The Hurontario-Main LRT will have no connections to other subway lines, or even other rapid transit corridors, other than the Mississauga Transitway BRT, and possibly a Dundas LRT.

11. The travel time for the Hurontario-Main LRT from end to end will be 39 minutes, not one hour.

[manrush]

I can picture the ensuing light rail corridor looking similar to this tramway in Kayseri, Turkey.

Photo by tramturk

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tramturk/3348086527/

[rapid_business]

Likely. Especially in Mississauga where none of the buildings along Hurontario really address the street itself (or at least in any decent fashion).

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by manrush

I can picture the ensuing light rail corridor looking similar to this tramway in Kayseri, Turkey.

Photo by tramturk

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tramturk/3348086527/

Don't fully bet on that. It all depends on what the market can support. Just because there is LRT does not mean that Mississauga families will not want single family homes.
You will get some density in areas like MCC. But the entire street might not transform for a long long time.

[goodthings]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Don't fully bet on that. It all depends on what the market can support. Just because there is LRT does not mean that Mississauga families will not want single family homes.
You will get some density in areas like MCC. But the entire street might not transform for a long long time.

Correct. Mineola and Peel Village will definitely stay the same (or change a little) regardless of LRT being put in, as they are protected heritage areas.

The rest: Port Credit, Cooksville, City Centre, Uptown, Gateway Corporate, Shoppers World, and Downtown Brampton will become concrete jungles by who knows when.

Originally Posted by onishenko

Likely. Especially in Mississauga where none of the buildings along Hurontario really address the street itself (or at least in any decent fashion).

There are some buildings already fronting Hurontario Street, especially Port Credit, Cooksville, Downtown Brampton, and the City Centre. But those in Cooksville are surrounded by strip malls that are destined to be demolished anyways, while those in the City Centre can be solved by infill, notably the Kaneff area.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Don't fully bet on that. It all depends on what the market can support. Just because there is LRT does not mean that Mississauga families will not want single family homes.
You will get some density in areas like MCC. But the entire street might not transform for a long long time.

Umm... the picture Manrush posted is a reference to current state of Hurontario as pictured in the first post of this thread. Most of Hurontario Street is already lined with high-rise buildings like that tramway in Kayseri.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you think that Hurontario is mostly single-family homes, with low likelihood of intensification in the near and medium future. It does after all explain why you keep on criticizing the LRT for not being a subway line. Because obviously there is no better kind of corridor for a subway line than along a suburban road lined with single-family houses with little chance of intensification. But the Hurontario corridor is actually mostly apartment buildings and doesn't have many single-family homes, and high opportunity for intensification, hence a lower capacity mode of transit such as LRT is the better choice.

[Doady]

Here's another picture of the Hurontario corridor in Mississauga, this one by Jasonzed. It the same angle as the pic at the top of the thread, but from further away.



Are these two pictures evidence of a lack of demand for multi-unit housing along the much of Hurontario corridor? I'll let you decide.

[manrush]

I'm curious: are there parts of the Hurontario line where elevation would be a better solution than at-grade running?

Perhaps a combination of both.