Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

And to be honest, there is also a lot of self exclusion and isolation amongst certain francophone populations dans le Canada hors Quebec too, for example in la Peninsule.

I hope the peninsular elites remember the little guys when they meet in the Caraquet Tim Hortons for roll up the rim days.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

And to be honest, there is also a lot of self exclusion and isolation amongst certain francophone populations dans le Canada hors Quebec too, for example in la Peninsule.

It's not just an anglophone problem..........

Good point though they don't complain that New BrunswickER as an identity does not intuititively evoke for many people someone who is a francophone.

They don't think of the New BrunswickER identity much at all.

The people in Macadam and Hartland can have it all for themselves. (Though NB Acadians harbour no ill-will towards their province.)

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And if we're being honest, at least part of the "anglophones aren't considered real Québécois" gripe is actually the result of self-exclusion and isolation.

What about the accusations that “Jean” Charest was actually “John” or the way the separatists would accusatorially emphasize the “Elliot” in “Pierre Elliot Trudeau”? It would never occur to me to say that a Franco-Manitoban who didn’t speak English all that well, or even at all, wasn’t a “Manitoban” in the fullest sense, despite any self-exclusion or isolation.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Andy6

What about the accusations that “Jean” Charest was actually “John” or the way the separatists would accusatorially emphasize the “Elliot” in “Pierre Elliot Trudeau”? .

Trudeau and Charest got that (PET way more than Charest) due to the nastiness of the political game, fuelled by a perception - right or wrong - that they were working against what most regarded as the interests of the "nation".

For the record I've never heard anyone do anything like that to Mulcair or Mulroney, who are both also federalists from Quebec, in addition to being more audibly anglophone (Mulcair) or born of two anglophone parents (Mulroney).

Which should in theory cost them more "purity" points than Charest and Trudeau. Well, if that many people actually cared about such things.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Andy6

It would never occur to me to say that a Franco-Manitoban who didn’t speak English all that well, or even at all, wasn’t a “Manitoban” in the fullest sense, despite any self-exclusion or isolation.

I get that but the point is rather moot. Finding a Franco-Manitoban who isn't reasonably integrated into the wider Manitoban society (including linguistically) at this point in history is akin to finding a unicorn in Riding Mountain NP.

As usual, things are bit more complicated in Quebec.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I get that but the point is rather moot. Finding a Franco-Manitoban who isn't reasonably integrated into the wider Manitoban society (including linguistically) at this point in history is akin to finding a unicorn in Riding Mountain NP.

How is that any different from an anglo living in, say, Drummondville? Even if the anglo watches the CBC News at night instead of TVA, there is probably going to be some baseline level of integration with the community where they work, shop, maybe belong to a community organization or two, etc. I guess it's possible that someone could use technology to live remotely in English Canada and seal themselves off totally from their immediate surroundings, but it strikes me as a bit unlikely.

There are people in Manitoba who live their lives mostly in Punjabi, German, Russian, Chinese, Cree and even French, but they are still considered Manitoban.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And if we're being honest, at least part of the "anglophones aren't considered real Québécois" gripe is actually the result of self-exclusion and isolation.

Your smugness really gets on my nerves. You (and Lio, since you are practically the same person) seem to think you have a monopoly on the answers.

If we are being honest...ah fuck it.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Your smugness really gets on my nerves. You (and Lio, since you are practically the same person) seem to think you have a monopoly on the answers.

If we are being honest...ah fuck it.

I gave a whole bunch of names of people are considered part of the Québécois "us" who are (non-assimilated) anglophones. I can list off many more if required.

I believe almost all of them are (declared or assumed to be) federalists and some of them are even critical of certain Québécois groupthink tenets.

But they're still considered part of the "us" (and often belovedly so) so it's legitimate to ask why it's worked for them and not for others, and whether or not self-exclusion plays a role in at least some cases.

It can't all be on those evil xenophobic Québécois francophones who just don't want to accept anglos (or anyone different) as part of their gang.

Such things are never that one-sided. As an eminent professor specialized in cultural differences (not doxing you BTW - you've said this many times on here) you of all people should be more aware of this than any of us.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by lio45

MolsonEx's uncle who lives in Lévis would be a good example showing how "Québécois Status" is easily achievable by people of British Isles ancestry.

Assimilation yes?

Hmmm, didn't the British try this out on the French speaking habitants? I for one think it is a good thing they failed.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Assimilation yes?

Hmmm, didn't the British try this out on the French speaking habitants? I for one think it is a good thing they failed.

That's an entirely separate question and I didn't even venture an opinion on that. My "interventions" so far were strictly at the level of observing facts: if you're assimilated, then you're assimilated; if you're not assimilated, then you're not assimilated.

You don't get to prefer to not assimilate then complain that you're not assimilated. Can't have this both ways. If I moved to Moscow but lived in a francophone neighborhood, didn't learn a word of Russian, and didn't partake at all in Russian culture, I couldn't possibly see myself ever being outraged or surprised that Russians don't fully consider me a Russian who's part of their collective "us". And I'd be the one responsible for that state of affairs, not them.

[kool maudit]

This is because "Quebecois" is arguably an ethnicity in the older manner, while "Manitoban" is not. Of course, the older manner is unfashionable and on its way out (e.g. Zlatan is Swedish now, whereas in 1910 he would not have been), but we all know that these things are not precisely flat or equivalent, even if we must treat them that way in an official sense.

[MolsonExport]

letters that don't even exist in the English language

The e accent aigu is not on my keyboard (without having to insert a special character), and you know this, but think you are so clever pointing this out.

[MolsonExport]

because they sound like Québécois and act like Québécois.

otherwise you are "out"

according to those who not only have an advantage in said criteria as bestowed from birth, but are also judge, jury and executioner with respect to ascertaining whether others pass whatever bar they want to set (note that the bar can be very conveniently raised or lowered depending on whether the "de souche" crowd perceives they might gain an advantage by being inclusionary or exclusionary).

Sounds a bit like those famous Anglos (e.g., the apocryphal fat english saleslady at Eaton's) asking Québécois to "Speak White"

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

otherwise you are "out"

according to those who not only have an advantage in said criteria as bestowed from birth, but are also judge, jury and executioner with respect to ascertaining whether others pass whatever bar they want to set (note that the bar can be very conveniently raised or lowered depending on whether the "de souche" crowd perceives they might gain an advantage by being inclusionary or exclusionary).

Sounds a bit like those famous Anglos (e.g., the apocryphal fat english saleslady at Eaton's) asking Québécois to "Speak White"

Regarding "birthright" Québécois...

Mike Bossy was born to an "English" mother and a Polish father who integrated into Montreal's anglo community as everyone did back in the day. Bossy was born in 1957 so 20 years before Bill 101. He grew up in north end Montreal and Laval, and went to English schools all his life. He spent 10 years in NY when he played for the Islanders.

Actress Marina Orsini who is roughly my age and MolsonEx's was born in SW Montreal to an Italian father (who spoke mostly English of course) and a Scottish mother. She went to James Lyng High School. At the pinnacle of her career she was the go-to actress for "Quebec Gothic" classic TV shows and movies set in rural Quebec featuring a "French" (sic) origin woman in leading roles.

No one in their right mind would say that Marina Orsini is not a real Québécoise.

I didn't make this society, but I do have a pretty good grasp of what makes it tick. It's not really very different from any other when it comes to this stuff.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I didn't make this society, but I do have a pretty good grasp of what makes it tick. It's not really very different from any other when it comes to this stuff.

YOU have a pretty good grasp, but I, as a native-born Quebec -ker (not -cois, with the requisite accents, apparently) don't?

Do you understand how patronizing that sounds?

Perhaps I could go over to England and tell native-born folk like Sajid Javid* "what it is to be English"; after all, I got the English-sounding name, an impeccable (if not Canadian) command of the language, and dammit some of my folk are old-stock English, never mind that I wasn't born there.

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sajid_Javid

You know one when you "see" (sic) one.

Who is "You"?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

YOU have a pretty good grasp, but I, as a native-born Quebec -ker (not -cois, with the requisite accents, apparently) don't?

Do you understand how patronizing that sounds?

Perhaps I could go over to England and tell native-born folk like Sajid Javid* "what it is to be English"; after all, I got the English-sounding name, an impeccable (if not Canadian) command of the language, and dammit some of my folk are old-stock English, never mind that I wasn't born there.

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sajid_Javid



Who is "You"?

You are entitled to your opinion just like anyone else.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

otherwise you are "out"

according to those who not only have an advantage in said criteria as bestowed from birth, but are also judge, jury and executioner with respect to ascertaining whether others pass whatever bar they want to set (note that the bar can be very conveniently raised or lowered depending on whether the "de souche" crowd perceives they might gain an advantage by being inclusionary or exclusionary).

Sounds a bit like those famous Anglos (e.g., the apocryphal fat english saleslady at Eaton's) asking Québécois to "Speak White"

She was fat?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

She was fat?

The legend keeps growing. I heard she had a peg leg and an eye patch...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

She was fat?

It was actually (more or less) a direct quote.

See here:

https://prabook.com/web/pierre.macdonald/1959301

Yeah, ironic his name was Pierre... MacDonald. He was also Liberal, not PQ.

No doubt he was Québécois, though!

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

otherwise you are "out"

Yep, which is 1) reasonable, 2) totally unsurprising, 3) their fault.

If you live in Russia but don't speak any Russian, don't engage with the Russian people and aren't the tiniest bit interested in Russian culture... then you are "out", yes. I don't see this as a problem. Some people are Russian. Others aren't. It's okay.