Condo Living-The Worst Kind of Canadian Living?

[Architype]

Originally Posted by whatnext

So, this was inspired by a thread in the Vancouver forum. My basic question: is living in a condo the worst kind of living in Canada (bar a tent or cardboard box)? You're at the mercy of the quirks and behaviours of scores of other owners/renters but unlike a someone renting a flat you can't just give notice and leave. Plus these buildings are beginning to rack up some significant expenses as they age.

Then there's been the issue of skyrocketing insurance premiums for some of these buildings. Often the result of water damage claims from pipe failures etc.

Often the naysayers claim that operating a house is more expensive but based on what I see being charged monthly maintenance fees I'd argue that's not the case. I can mow my own lawn and rake my own leaves. It's unlikely I'll have to replace the roof more than once.

There are all kinds of issues, but they are not restricted to condos. Don't forget it's about density, affordability, carbon footprint, etc., and don't forget that almost 30% of Canadian households consist of single people. To live in a house by yourself doesn't seem like much of a solution to any of our current issues. If it's about type of ownership as opposed to type of building form, that's another discussion; there are pros and cons to both, but ownership is investment while renting is a slow bleed contribution to the wealth of the 1%.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Urban SFH > urban condo > rural SFH > suburban SFH > suburban condo.

This feels correct to me as well.

I'm not sure I could live in St. John's if I had to live outside downtown, but I would definitely choose Petty Harbour over Paradise.

The last two I might be open to switching around, if I had to live in the suburbs. Something that feels more transient and temporary like a condo, presumably near a bus stop with a straighter rip downtown, might protect my mental health a little more than a detached home in a single-use subdivision on street without sidewalks.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Architype

There are all kinds of issues, but they are not restricted to condos. Don't forget it's about density, affordability, carbon footprint, etc., and don't forget that almost 30% of Canadian households consist of single people. To live in a house by yourself doesn't seem like much of a solution to any of our current issues. If it's about type of ownership as opposed to type of building form, that's another discussion; there are pros and cons to both, but ownership is investment while renting is a slow bleed contribution to the wealth of the 1%.

This. It is silly to make a sweeping conclusion that condos represent the "worst kind of Canadian living". Just like any other form of housing, condos range from being the absolute best form of living for many people having a wide range of circumstances and living large urban areas, to being overpriced and/or deteriorating assets offering sub-optimal living quarters.

[niwell]

As others have mentioned condo really just refers to ownership type. It's absolutely true that many of the new highrises with shoebox units aren't particularly livable. But on the flipside an ex of mine and I lived in a 1970s condo in Ottawa owned by her parents (they lived elsewhere) and it was totally fine - interior was a bit dated but we had 3 bedrooms and around 1,200 sq ft of space. Maintenance fees were fairly reasonable and while the building didn't have the best amenities there was a gym and outdoor pool. You could easily raise a family in there.

I have no interest in highrise living at this point primarily due to owning 2 bigger dogs and the logistics surrounding that. However the type of arrangement Kilgore Trout was talking about in Montreal plexes is very appealing to me. I know it's also pretty common to be able to purchase a floor of a 3 flat in Chicago or triple decker in Boston. If you could easily purchase a floor in an old subdivided Toronto house or new plex development that would be great - I know there are some examples but it's pretty rare. I'm sure both the traditional housing typology and the way the Condo Act is structured make it difficult.

We'd be fine in anything ground oriented enough though - I want the option to easily walk up and down. But anything with the size we'd like isn't at a price point I'd find it easy to justify. Too used to living in a 1,000 sq ft 1 bedroom with 2 separate offices.

[bridgeoftea]

Someone already made the point "location, location, location".

Living in Saint John, NB, I've had 3 types of homes. Top floor apartment. Townhouse with neighbours on both sides. Single family home.

I only ever wanted a condo/townhouse style home, until we had the worst neighbour in the world and ended up leaving the townhouse after 8 months.

However, I'd rather be living Uptown Saint John but it comes with the neighbour risk, lack of stable parking. When you're living in a city where a car is almost mandatory, it's not worth the struggle.

If I was living in Europe or a dense walkable city like New York, I'd happily take the benefits of a good location, walking distance to grocery stores/amenity/reliable, fast transit. While taking a chance on a crazy neighbour.

For me it would be:
Best Location > Urban SFH > Apartment > Townhouse > Condo > Rural SFH

[Acajack]

One Canadian advantage of living in a condo is the ability to isolate yourself quite a bit from the elements - especially during the winter.

You can minimise your exposure more than an SFH, townhouse or small apartment resident with an underground parking garage, direct indoor access to transit in some cities, so no snow clearing to do or brushing the snow off the car.

Bonus points if your workplace and other amenities are directly connected to your condo building via transit (or at least close enough), or if your workplace and other places you frequent have indoor heated parking.

[Echoes]

When I started looking to purchase my first home, my mind was set on an urban condo (urban in the local context) but eventually realized that a modest SFH in a walkable, close-in neighbourhood was within reach for me in Saskatoon. My walk to work may be a bit longer than I wanted but I have no regrets. My quality of life is great.

It's hard to see the urban condo market here really taking off until the central SFH neighbourhoods become universally out of reach.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by Acajack

One Canadian advantage of living in a condo is the ability to isolate yourself quite a bit from the elements - especially during the winter.

You can minimise your exposure more than an SFH, townhouse or small apartment resident with an underground parking garage, direct indoor access to transit in some cities, so no snow clearing to do or brushing the snow off the car.

Bonus points if your workplace and other amenities are directly connected to your condo building via transit (or at least close enough), or if your workplace and other places you frequent have indoor heated parking.

I lived roughly one year in a rental tower that was connected to work via an underground passage that included a full grocery store. The rental tower surprisingly didn't have balconies either. It wasn't healthy. I feel similar for the thousands of office workers in the basements of downtown Toronto office towers that may not see sunlight in the winter months for the entire work week

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

I lived roughly one year in a rental tower that was connected to work via an underground passage that included a full grocery store. The rental tower surprisingly didn't have balconies either. It wasn't healthy. I feel similar for the thousands of office workers in the basements of downtown Toronto office towers that may not see sunlight in the winter months for the entire work week

Good points. I should have added the caveat "if one so desires".

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by Acajack

One Canadian advantage of living in a condo is the ability to isolate yourself quite a bit from the elements - especially during the winter.

You can minimise your exposure more than an SFH, townhouse or small apartment resident with an underground parking garage, direct indoor access to transit in some cities, so no snow clearing to do or brushing the snow off the car.

Bonus points if your workplace and other amenities are directly connected to your condo building via transit (or at least close enough), or if your workplace and other places you frequent have indoor heated parking.

Garages exist you know! Even if most homeowners have them stuffed full of junk..

We have a single car garage, on the small side, and squeeze our Civic in it in the winters to avoid the cold weather. In the summer the Civic goes on the driveway and we use it as a place to stage bikes, yard tools, etc.

It's a similar quality of weather protection that our apartment in Downtown Toronto had, with the added bonus of not having to loop out of 3 levels of parking garage when driving out.

The thing that bothered me the most about high-rise apartment living was the amount of time it took to get out of the building - elevators, parking ramps, etc. Once out we were a quick 3-minute walk to the subway, but I had to take the streetcar to work at the time, which meant lots of standing around outside.. didn't enjoy it at all. Being directly connected to the PATH definitely would have been nice though.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Garages exist you know! Even if most homeowners have them stuffed full of junk..

We have a single car garage, on the small side, and squeeze our Civic in it in the winters to avoid the cold weather. In the summer the Civic goes on the driveway and we use it as a place to stage bikes, yard tools, etc.
.

Yes I know I have a double garage attached to my house. Though mine is not heated, but even if it was you still need to clear the snow from the driveway, the sidewalk, your front steps and any other walkways. These are things that a condo dweller doesn't need to do in the winter. (Not saying I hate doing all that, only that condo dwellers often mention this as an advantage.)

[Innsertnamehere]

yea - true. We don't get a ton of snow here though so it's not a huge deal. I think I've averaged shoveling 4-5 times a year in the 3 years since we moved here. Its rare to have more than a week or so go by here without some above-freezing weather, so unless it's a large dumping of snow you can usually just leave it and it melts in a few days.

Definitely a different story somewhere like Quebec or Alberta though.

My garage isn't heated either per se, but I find it's usually substantially warmer than outside from heat loss from the house and just temperature moderation in general being enclosed. Makes a huge difference over parking your car outside.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

yea - true. We don't get a ton of snow here though so it's not a huge deal. I think I've averaged shoveling 4-5 times a year in the 3 years since we moved here. Its rare to have more than a week or so go by here without some above-freezing weather, so unless it's a large dumping of snow you can usually just leave it and it melts in a few days.

Definitely a different story somewhere like Quebec or Alberta though.

My garage isn't heated either per se, but I find it's usually substantially warmer than outside from heat loss from the house and just temperature moderation in general being enclosed. Makes a huge difference over parking your car outside.

Yeah, even mine stays just above freezing on many winter days. It's got common walls with the main house on 2 sides plus rooms above it.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by Acajack

One Canadian advantage of living in a condo is the ability to isolate yourself quite a bit from the elements - especially during the winter.

You can minimise your exposure more than an SFH, townhouse or small apartment resident with an underground parking garage, direct indoor access to transit in some cities, so no snow clearing to do or brushing the snow off the car.

Bonus points if your workplace and other amenities are directly connected to your condo building via transit (or at least close enough), or if your workplace and other places you frequent have indoor heated parking.

Minimizing exposure from the elements can also apply to heating and air conditioning and their costs. A unit in a condo/apartment building (as long as it isn't really old) can save you big bucks on heating/AC. Even a 1,500 sq. ft unit is very quick to heat up/cool down and because you normally have only 1 cold wall (even if it spans 3 rooms) the temperatures stay in a comfortable spot for MUCH longer. My mother lives in a similar condo unit and her utility bills are so much smaller than those from a house.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by Berklon

Minimizing exposure from the elements can also apply to heating and air conditioning and their costs. A unit in a condo/apartment building (as long as it isn't really old) can save you big bucks on heating/AC. Even a 1,500 sq. ft unit is very quick to heat up/cool down and because you normally have only 1 cold wall (even if it spans 3 rooms) the temperatures stay in a comfortable spot for MUCH longer. My mother lives in a similar condo unit and her utility bills are so much smaller than those from a house.

You still pay for that heating of the common areas through your condo fees. The fees in most of central Canada for condos are kind of crazy compared to what we pay in BC.

[1overcosc]

Ontario's legal model for condos creates a huge amount of bureaucratic overhead in terms of needing a corporation with a board and a manager and engineering studies and so on, which drives up condo fees. It also makes it practically impossible to have a condo property with fewer than a dozen or so units, which prevents the scenario of triplexes where everyone owns their unit.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by theman23

You still pay for that heating of the common areas through your condo fees. The fees in most of central Canada for condos are kind of crazy compared to what we pay in BC.

Right, but condo fees are a given - and isn't just for heating common areas, it's for all the other amenities as well.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Ontario's legal model for condos creates a huge amount of bureaucratic overhead in terms of needing a corporation with a board and a manager and engineering studies and so on, which drives up condo fees. It also makes it practically impossible to have a condo property with fewer than a dozen or so units, which prevents the scenario of triplexes where everyone owns their unit.

which honestly is a massive problem with the modern idea of missing middle housing. It almost has to be rental housing in Ontario, not ownership - which is a shame.

[WhipperSnapper]

Isn't that a product of all the mismanaged condo properties from the 1970s? Special assessments are killers for homeowner and property values alike.

There's quite a few Toronto residential condominiums with 5 or less units in the list I have. Property and construction costs are far too high to expect new triplexes to resolving the missing middle. The unit price will be nearly as much as the original single family home.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Urban SFH > urban condo > rural SFH > suburban SFH > suburban condo.

IMO of course (if we're strictly talking about ownership of a property). But point being, there's a little more nuance than just "condo bad/condo good". Even just amongst condos within a given area there can be a huge variation based on building type and other conditions (eg. heritage loft condo vs. investor-focused high rise. Well-run small building vs. ghost hotel, etc).

Out of all of those I'd label the urban FH the best. On small lots so you know your neighbours yet you're in control of your home and yard. I'd be willing to be that all the homes in this picture have at least a basement suite (or are divided up into suites). As such, they provide truly affordable housing options that market newbuilds can never match.

[IMG]houses by bcborn, on Flickr[/IMG]

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