Ottawa Rapid Transit Network developments

[waterloowarrior]

Originally Posted by c_speed3108

The only really tricky part left is the U of O to Hurdman stretch.

maybe they'll use it as an excuse to build the Alta Vista Parkway early to clear the way for construction.... only half-joking since the entire thing is still in the draft TMP (built in stages)... why are we building $2 billion of new roads anyways...

[Dado]

Originally Posted by c_speed3108

I am thinking the stars are beginning to align for the Byron corridor...and I could not be happier.

The reason I think so are:

1) The NCC seems awfully cool to the parkway idea. This is going to be worse then pulling teeth to build anything there.

2) It seems a number of parties (councilors, newspapers perhaps even city staff) are doing what they can to sink the Carling idea.

At least in the paper it was called "a street car" *gasp* the forbidden word!

They also went to the trouble to mention that it will stop at 30 traffic lights.

I frankly can't think of many ways to create a worse impression of that route. This think makes it sound like you will be luck to get from Kanata to Downtown by noon if you leave at 6AM. Transfers, stop lights, and just general slowness.

So on that note...Byron it is.

And I have to agree with m0nkyman, that some of the other options were put forward to eat the opposition so that Byron can be left standing.

How do you explain the fact that it was staff who put out the $750M price tag for using Byron?

[Dado]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

The Ambleside residents have been begging for a Transitway stop at Old Orchard for the longest time. I think they would be elated if the stop was along Richmond instead.

Cute... "Old Orchard". I hope that's not some tongue-in-cheek reference to the New Orchard nursing home. At any rate, last I heard it was the residents on Ambleside who were opposed to a Transitway stop there and it was the workers at New Orchard who wanted it.

A stop on Richmond would be much better from a CPTED perspective as well, especially if it was at grade.

[Kitchissippi]

One of the things I found that was not integrated very well in the presentation tonight was how the Roadway Infrastructure Plan related to the Public Transit Plan. If in fact these roads were built, should they not be transit focused and figure in the Rapid Transit Network? For example, if Terry Fox-Hope Side-Hunt Club-Innes were linked, it would make an excellent East-West transit priority route that crosses many of the city's high tech and industrial parks.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Dado

Cute... "Old Orchard". I hope that's not some tongue-in-cheek reference to the New Orchard nursing home. At any rate, last I heard it was the residents on Ambleside who were opposed to a Transitway stop there and it was the workers at New Orchard who wanted it.

My bad, the road is New Orchard not Old Orchard. It has not been feasible to put a stop there because the area is often flooded in the spring. They usually close the pedestrian underpass when that happens, and that's where the stop was proposed.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by Cre47

Here's also from the Citizen
...
This project would include a major new element: building an additional bus transitway that would run from Blair Station along Innes Road and then into downtown. That corridor would carry the large volume of riders from the east while the current transitway is converted to commuter rail. It would continue to operate after the rail system is built, especially to accommodate riders going to and from the health sciences campus in Alta Vista.
...

So, the staging for this east link must be to build the busway from Hurdman to Innes (along the Browning corridor) first. The only way this would continue to move eastern riders to downtown is if the bridge over the Rideau and the Transitway was still intact from Hurdman to downtown.

UNLESS the bus could find another route from Hurdman into downtown; OR the bus would take Industrial/Riverside/417/Nicholas from Innes. Notice that the anouncement states the route as "from Blair Station along Innes Road and then into downtown". I know that the map shows a "Supplementary Transit - Bus" route through the Browning corridor, but it does not show any bus link into the downtown core. This alternative route would allow conversion of the Transitway from Blair through to UofO where the tunnel portal is. Of course, the bus could go from Hurdman up Riverside/417/Nicholas to downtown as well.

I'm curious how the major new element will keep providing an east end to downtown link "after the rail system is built". (I guess it is not to be included in the "rail system".)

If there really is to be no bus link from Hurdman to downtown, west end people will need to take the bus to downtown (assuming the train only goes to Tunney's Pasture, there will still be a western bus which goes downtown I hope), then the train to Hurdman, then a bus to the hospital site. Fun

The west tunnel portal to Tunney's Pasture conversion is easy since the buses can run along Scott/Wellington/Albert/Slater east of Tweedsmere.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

...
Developments since Primary Transit Network established in May 2008.

• LRT extended to Riverside South
• Browning Avenue Corridor included
• Supplementary Transit corridor identified
• Transit priority corridors included
• Park and Ride Facilities for Ottawa, iTRANS Consulting Inc

...

Notice also that there is now a transfer station at Confederation that links the LRT, the BRT and the supplemental transit - bus along Heron. With a full transfer station there, why are they still running a BRT south from there?

Expect to hear a lot of complaints that the south line extends across the Greenbelt to the RS City Centre. The east passengers will have to take a bus to transfer at Blair. (However, if the new Browning link is maintained, they might be able to take the south line and bus directly downtown.) Oddly, Barrhaven and Kanata passengers should still be able to take their bus directly downtown until the rail is extended to Lincoln Fields and Baseline. (It is possible that they will be forced to transfer at TP or Bayview, but I doubt it.) Once the train is extended, they too will need to take a bus across the Greenbelt to transfer to the train. Barrhaven will have the advantage since they will also be able to bus to the RS TC to take the train.

So did anyone else notice that Staff have pulled the 'plan' back to what they originally wanted from the one City Council approved? The one Council approved is shown in the first post of this thread. The extensions across the Greenbelt are not included in this latest 'plan'.

[lrt's friend]

I asked two different consultants tonight about the bridge at Hurdman station. Both gave me the same answer. It will likely be necessary to build the Alta Vista parkway bridge, at least for transit in order to provide an alternative route into downtown by buses. One consultant added that there will still be a need to allow some buses into downtown from the southeast. One of the people at my table almost freaked at the possibility that any portion of the Alta Vista parkway would be built, even for transit. He hopes that the entire project goes down in flames. My table was also full of Westboro residents opposed to the Ottawa River Parkway route, gladly accepting a delay to permit further study of alternatives. Our table either supported Scenario 3 or were undecided.

One consultant suggested that we will not need to settle the lawsuit before requesting a proposal on the new project, nor would the lawsuit have any impact on who would bid. I wish I felt so confident.

I gasped when Alex Cullen announced on CFRA this afternoon that we should not expect any functioning rail system until 2018. When I asked the mayor this evening about the 10 year implementation period, he tried to tell me that we will see progress on parts before that, but he seemed to be rather flustered by the question and another asked by somebody else.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by Dado

That's perfectly true; the objections so far - which is what I was referring to - have been against the Parkway route. The loudest voice against the Byron routing so far has been Alex Cullen, and, for some strange reason, city staff with their outrageous $750M claim.
...

The way I see it:
Cullen and staff keep pushing the Parkway option and making very high estimates for the Byron route.

Once the studies are in, the Parkway will be the cheapest option since it will be the most impossible for the NCC to accept. (Surface rail with overhead wires and fences.) The NCC will say "NO!" but will then be responsible (in the City's eyes) to cover the cost of the next cheapest route - Byron. This appears to be a pretty typical game that the City is playing. It wants to have the Byron corridor without looking like a bad guy for putting a train through a residential neighbourhood, and it wants to look as if it was forced into a higher priced option by the NCC. (The NCC may or may not pay the cost difference. I think that that will depend on public opinion at the time.)

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

...There are weird errors in that diagram -- Conroy Rd is labeled as Alta Vista, and the Blackburn ByPass is labeled Cumberland, and Industrial is in the wrong place.

I think those are the names of the corridors, not the roads.

[lrt's friend]

Notice also that there is now a transfer station at Confederation that links the LRT, the BRT and the supplemental transit - bus along Heron. With a full transfer station there, why are they still running a BRT south from there?

Expect to hear a lot of complaints that the south line extends across the Greenbelt to the RS City Centre. The east passengers will have to take a bus to transfer at Blair. (However, if the new Browning link is maintained, they might be able to take the south line and bus directly downtown.) Oddly, Barrhaven and Kanata passengers should still be able to take their bus directly downtown until the rail is extended to Lincoln Fields and Baseline. (It is possible that they will be forced to transfer at TP or Bayview, but I doubt it.) Once the train is extended, they too will need to take a bus across the Greenbelt to transfer to the train. Barrhaven will have the advantage since they will also be able to bus to the RS TC to take the train.

So did anyone else notice that Staff have pulled the 'plan' back to what they originally wanted from the one City Council approved? The one Council approved is shown in the first post of this thread. The extensions across the Greenbelt are not included in this latest 'plan'.

I think we have been over and over this already. The South Keys to Hurdman corridor has built very significant ridership over many years. To sever this would be foolish way to frustrate customers.

As far as the Riverside South LRT extension beyond the Greenbelt, there is more to this than treating everybody exactly equally. LRT was being run south first all along because some sort of rapid transit will be needed to prevent massive road construction, a bus Transitway would face much resistance from environmentalists and because a rail line was already there.

There was really no changes regarding the LRT extensions beyond the Greenbelt. There was a map posted tonight that showed all the eventual LRT lines to Barrhaven, Kanata and Orleans.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I asked two different consultants tonight about the bridge at Hurdman station. Both gave me the same answer. It will likely be necessary to build the Alta Vista parkway bridge, at least for transit in order to provide an alternative route into downtown by buses. One consultant added that there will still be a need to allow some buses into downtown from the southeast.

Interesting... these guys just can't make the break with BRT. They're just incapable of doing it. Of course were they to convert the SE Twy that "need" would go away.

I gasped when Alex Cullen announced on CFRA this afternoon that we should not expect any functioning rail system until 2018.

Why did you gasp? I wrote the same thing this morning.

[lrt's friend]

Why did you gasp? I wrote the same thing this morning.

It is hard to get over that this is all going to take so long before we have anything workable. Obviously, now we need an EA on the Innes corridor Transitway, which must also be built before we begin work on the East Transitway conversion.

One young guy was very animated tonight, and after numerous questions to various consultants, he made the statement that even he would likely be dead before there is a functioning rail system.

[AuxTown]

The only really tricky part left is the U of O to Hurdman stretch.

U of O is planning some pretty major construction in the centre of campus over the next couple of years. I wonder how feasible it would be to continue the tunnel underneath the university with a major station right in the centre of campus? I bet the U of O would cover the cost of a station if it linked into one of the new buildings proposed around Uni Centre.

[lrt's friend]

Councillors urged to build rail to east, south first
Construction scenario skirts controversy over parkway route

Patrick Dare
The Ottawa Citizen


Friday, September 12, 2008



City transit planners say it could take three years to sort out the objections to commuter rail along the Ottawa River Parkway, so council should first consider going ahead with rail service east to Blair Station and south to Riverside South.

The city unveiled four construction scenarios yesterday for the ambitious new rapid-transit plan, which is now expected to cost $4.7 billion over the next 25 years. Each lays out a different sequence of projects to achieve the same final result.

For the first phase of the project, over the next 10 years, two of the scenarios run rail east and west. They are problematic because of concerns from the National Capital Commission and many residents about a train corridor running along the Ottawa River.

Deputy city manager Nancy Schepers stressed that the NCC is working with the city and the commission simply wants all of the options explored. She is hopeful that the city can convince the commission and the public that a sleek, quiet new commuter train running along the river will be much more attractive than the current sight of 250 diesel buses an hour barrelling down the parkway during rush hour. But she says that consultation process cannot be rushed without risking the project.

The effect of the delay, however, will be that the east-west service will be difficult to build within the next decade, leaving the city to build its downtown tunnel and then go east and likely south.

That revives a big debate at Ottawa City Hall: Should commuter rail be built north and south when most of the commuters in the city are going east and west?

The east-and-south scenario, known as "scenario three," got the quick endorsement of some influential city council members yesterday, including Mayor Larry O'Brien, transit committee chairman Alex Cullen, planning and environment committee chairman Peter Hume and River Councillor Maria McRae.

Mr. Hume said building from the east at Blair Station to Bayview Station, then south to Greenboro and Riverside South is the surest way to get commuter rail started in Ottawa in the next 10 years. The city estimates it will have 147 million transit trips taken a year in 2018 if the east-south system is built. This year there are expected to be 100 million transit trips.

Mr. Cullen said commuter rail to the south will stimulate urban development and bring transit riders onto the trains.

Mr. O'Brien said the southern part of the city, where new communities are growing, doesn't have the road system that the west has and people living in the south need public transit to get downtown and beyond.

He said a commuter rail service to the east will be a "building tool" for the east's economic development, which has lagged behind the west side of the city.

Ms. McRae, who represents a ward that would be served by the southern rail service, said it makes sense to use all of the preparatory work that was completed for the aborted north-south commuter rail plan championed by former mayor Bob Chiarelli.

That project was cancelled, but the studies and engineering work remain valid for the city's much more comprehensive long-term plan, which includes a tunnel downtown and commuter rail in all directions.

Ms. McRae said she is confident the federal and provincial governments will help pay for the east-south project over the next 10 years. She noted that two Ontario cabinet ministers, Jim Bradley and George Smitherman, recently seemed impressed with the city's new transit plan.

The city is keen to get access to the joint federal-provincial Building Canada Fund -- which closes in 2014 -- and will be able to get its application in more quickly with the east-south project.

West-side councillors, however, questioned the sense of the proposed construction phasing immediately after Ms. Schepers made the scenarios public and had pointed out the problems with trying to build to the west in the first 10 years.

Kanata South Councillor Peggy Feltmate said it doesn't make sense to move away from the construction scenarios that have the highest possible transit ridership. She said building rail to the Riverside South town centre assures very low ridership for the train. Riverside South is planned to have 40,000 residents and several developments are under way, but the area has a population of about 7,000 now.

"They've brought back the train that we turned down," said Kanata North Councillor Marianne Wilkinson. "But we're growing like crazy in Kanata and Stittsville."

And "there's nothing for Barrhaven," said its councillor, Jan Harder. The rapidly growing southwestern suburb desperately needs better transit service, she said, but the plan only offers buses for her ward.

The 25-year transit plan detailed yesterday is $700 million more expensive than previously reported because of some new elements.

There will be a new stretch of bus Transitway from Blair Station to Hurdman Station. This would be built early, would handle east-side commuters while the existing eastern Transitway is turned into a rail line, and would eventually get people in and out of the health sciences campus in the Alta Vista neighbourhood, where the General campus of The Ottawa Hospital is located.

Part of the 25-year plan is a rail service along Carling Avenue, perhaps a streetcar service, to take advantage of the wide corridor the city has there in an area with a dense population and a lot of commuters. There would also be bus transit lanes along Baseline, Heron and Walkley roads.

The extra $700 million also covers a link into the town centre at Riverside South and technology and new roadway that gives transit vehicles the priority in traffic.

Over the next 10 years, "scenario three" would see 34 kilometres of commuter rail line and 30 kilometres of bus Transitway built. The cost of all that work is estimated at $2.5 billion.

City treasurer Marian Simulik sent councillors a memo yesterday saying that the plan is affordable if the federal and provincial governments agree to long-term financing of one-third each. The city's annual spending on the plan would be about $110 million.

The city is consulting the public on the four 10-year construction scenarios until the end of the month with several open houses listed on the city's website, www.ottawa.ca, which also has information on all the possible construction plans. The issue will then go to city committees and finally city council on Nov. 26.

That council vote will be critically important to the future of the transit plan. The city needs a solid majority of councillors to support the project to get the financial help it needs from the federal and provincial governments.

If west-side councillors Eli El-Chantiry, Shad Qadri, Peggy Feltmate and Marianne Wilkinson vote against it, joining four councillors who voted against the overall plan in May, there could still be a good majority supporting the project: 16 councillors out of 24 (counting the mayor).

"You can expect jockeying. That's the nature of the beast. But I expect the bulk of council will be behind it," said Mr. Cullen. "We have to choose something."

© The Ottawa Citizen 2008

I have said it before. Allex Cullen's only concern is getting the tunnel built. Allex opposed the south route before without the tunnel but he is now willing to support a similar route with a tunnel.

[Dado]

So according to that, it could take 3 years to sort out the route for west end. I think that's more exaggeration, but let's assume that's correct. So there are still 7 years left in which to do the design and to build it.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Obviously, now we need an EA on the Innes corridor Transitway, which must also be built before we begin work on the East Transitway conversion.

You mean like this one, approved in early July...
http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/cit...E-PLA-0122.htm

And still no EA in the offing for the West Transitway/ORP corridor. Sometimes, it's only a couple of months after some curious event has taken place that I realize that the fix had been in all along.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

One of the things I found that was not integrated very well in the presentation tonight was how the Roadway Infrastructure Plan related to the Public Transit Plan. If in fact these roads were built, should they not be transit focused and figure in the Rapid Transit Network? For example, if Terry Fox-Hope Side-Hunt Club-Innes were linked, it would make an excellent East-West transit priority route that crosses many of the city's high tech and industrial parks.

I'm afraid that I would disagree with you on the Hope Side to Hunt Club link. I think that a link from Hope Side to Fallowfield/Strandherd would be a better connection.

Connecting Hope Side to Strandherd could be done beside a quarry and it would lead to an existing 416 interchange. It would make a direct path from Barrhaven to Kanata without having to cross the Greenbelt twice. Strandherd is a wide road which is being extended across the Rideau River to also join Riverside South. And, for the environmentalists, it avoids taking a road through the Lime Kiln Park or environs.

[Kitchissippi]

Is it possible that this parkway issue is being perpetuated so that a south to east line is built first? There are way too many assumptions flying around, with no concrete options really coming from the city even though they've known about this issue for decades.

Also there is now $700 million more for other additions, and they are balking at spending $700 million (which is likely overblown) to solve the west end issue?

[Rathgrith]

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey

U of O is planning some pretty major construction in the centre of campus over the next couple of years. I wonder how feasible it would be to continue the tunnel underneath the university with a major station right in the centre of campus? I bet the U of O would cover the cost of a station if it linked into one of the new buildings proposed around Uni Centre.

I don't see why the U of O would not support it. The University needs a good connection to the canal. In the future, if I am maybe Mille Sabords has our way, we might see the removal or reduction of Nicholas st and more pedestrian frienly way to get to the canal from the U of O.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

I'm afraid that I would disagree with you on the Hope Side to Hunt Club link. I think that a link from Hope Side to Fallowfield/Strandherd would be a better connection.

Connecting Hope Side to Strandherd could be done beside a quarry and it would lead to an existing 416 interchange. It would make a direct path from Barrhaven to Kanata without having to cross the Greenbelt twice. Strandherd is a wide road which is being extended across the Rideau River to also join Riverside South. And, for the environmentalists, it avoids taking a road through the Lime Kiln Park or environs.

That is not my idea. I am merely pointing out what is in the city's plan.

There is also an intention to build another bridge at Fallowfield, which I find questionable. This would just add more traffic to Riverside, which is already too busy. If that bridge was built, maybe the LRT could be tunneled under the runway to go from the Airport and on to Fallowfield instead?