Sports in Canadian culture

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Mister F

What exactly are you arguing here, that people only pay attention to music from Toronto if the Americans do it first? That couldn't be farther from the truth. You can criticize our movies, TV, sports, etc. but the Toronto (and Canadian) music scene is extremely strong. We listen to loads of local music without caring one bit if it gets noticed in other countries. Music is the one part of our pop culture that doesn't have a hint of Canada's famous national inferiority complex.

Oh, I totally agree with you. It's a bright spot for sure.

But English Canadian music just hasn't really made many inroads in Quebec that could be related to its Canadianness.

What people know here is the Canadian music that's known internationally. Canada-only successes like The Tragically Hip are not widely known in Quebec outside of a tiny circle.

[mistercorporate]

Blah, blah, we're still the boss metropolis of this country. You know it, they know it, their fiancees know it, other countries know it, even the pink unicorns know it...

[elly63]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

yet toronto clearly has a cultural foothold in montreal. We could include new brunswick too but even there toronto has more influence than montreal.

wth?

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by elly63

wth?

The substantial Anglophone population (and some allophones) who often read Macleans, Globe and Mail and watch CBC/CTV, etc.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Perhaps people are resentful of Toronto in this way because its cultural leadership is so half-assed, and unsatisfying. So when it tries to walk the walk, people don't find it's walking the walk.

If I had to hazard a guess, I would say that it's less abstract than this. I think Toronto has limited relevance to the day-to-day cultural lives of people in the rest of the country. Here in Vancouver, for example, people mostly seem to be into North-America-wide stuff and a lot of them either have ties to some other country or to the US. People might move to Toronto for a job, like they might move to Calgary, but Toronto is hardly the primary or sole destination for ambitious people originating in this corner of the world. I know a lot more people who moved from BC to California than I do people who moved to Toronto, particularly if you leave out the ones who were simply going back to Ontario after a few years in BC.

Meanwhile, on the East Coast, there's a lot more emphasis on local culture. People are more inclined to watch the local news, pay attention to local bands, etc. People like a mix of local, Toronto, Montreal, and Boston sports teams. Those who move away seem to either head to Alberta if they want high-paying blue collar work or go to a diverse mix of places for other things.

Toronto itself is demographically disconnected from other parts of Canada in that a large part of its population moved there from other countries.

In any case I think the "cultural capital" stuff is awfully vague and meaningless. What is culture? What makes a place a cultural capital, and why does every country need to have one?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

The substantial Anglophone population (and some allophones) who often read Macleans, Globe and Mail and watch CBC/CTV, etc.

Sounds like grasping at straws. So when a Torontonian watches Star Trek with William Shatner, has a bagel or goes to an Arcade Fire concert, that's Montreal influence in Toronto?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

If I had to hazard a guess, I would say that it's less abstract than this. I think Toronto has limited relevance to the day-to-day cultural lives of people in the rest of the country. Here in Vancouver, for example, people mostly seem to be into North-America-wide stuff and a lot of them either have ties to some other country or to the US. People might move to Toronto for a job, like they might move to Calgary, but Toronto is hardly the primary or sole destination for ambitious people originating in this corner of the world. I know a lot more people who moved from BC to California than I do people who moved to Toronto, particularly if you leave out the ones who were simply going back to Ontario after a few years in BC.

Meanwhile, on the East Coast, there's a lot more emphasis on local culture. People are more inclined to watch the local news, pay attention to local bands, etc. People like a mix of local, Toronto, Montreal, and Boston sports teams. Those who move away seem to either head to Alberta if they want high-paying blue collar work or go to a diverse mix of places for other things.

Toronto itself is demographically disconnected from other parts of Canada in that a large part of its population moved there from other countries.

In any case I think the "cultural capital" stuff is awfully vague and meaningless. What is culture? What makes a place a cultural capital, and why does every country need to have one?

I think that in many cases the cultural capital is pretty obvious. For French Canada for example Montreal is uncontested.

I guess you guys can decide if Toronto fits the bill for English Canada, but if there are doubts about its status for English Canada, it becomes even more ridiculous to suggest it fills that role for all of Canada, including we francophones.

[Welkin]

Originally Posted by elly63

One word answer that renders false everything you have said...QATAR

Seriously? You are debating World Cup selection criteria and you answer with Qatar? Qatar, the selection that was so obviously corrupt that it brought down the highest levels of FIFA. Qatar is not part of my discussion in even the most remote way. I was debating that among the large, first-world countries, that Canada is the least "soccer" country and should never host the Men's World Cup. However, if I was debating what ass backwards, third world countries should host the World Cup by bribing the most FIFA officials, then you could answer with Qatar. We would also have accepted Russia, but that was obvious.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

If I had to hazard a guess, I would say that it's less abstract than this. I think Toronto has limited relevance to the day-to-day cultural lives of people in the rest of the country. Here in Vancouver, for example, people mostly seem to be into North-America-wide stuff and a lot of them either have ties to some other country or to the US. People might move to Toronto for a job, like they might move to Calgary, but Toronto is hardly the primary or sole destination for ambitious people originating in this corner of the world. I know a lot more people who moved from BC to California than I do people who moved to Toronto, particularly if you leave out the ones who were simply going back to Ontario after a few years in BC.

Meanwhile, on the East Coast, there's a lot more emphasis on local culture. People are more inclined to watch the local news, pay attention to local bands, etc. People like a mix of local, Toronto, Montreal, and Boston sports teams. Those who move away seem to either head to Alberta if they want high-paying blue collar work or go to a diverse mix of places for other things.

Toronto itself is demographically disconnected from other parts of Canada in that a large part of its population moved there from other countries.

In any case I think the "cultural capital" stuff is awfully vague and meaningless. What is culture? What makes a place a cultural capital, and why does every country need to have one?

As for Canada, someone said earlier it's likely not the type of country that can have a single city as a dominant cultural capital like Paris, London, Buenos Aires, Tokyo, etc.

Switzerland is relatively small and Zurich is quite a bit larger than Geneva, but in French Switzerland it's Geneva that's the big city. Not Zurich, even though it is not that far away.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by Welkin

Seriously? You are debating World Cup selection criteria and you answer with Qatar? Qatar, the selection that was so obviously corrupt that it brought down the highest levels of FIFA. Qatar is not part of my discussion in even the most remote way. I was debating that among the large, first-world countries, that Canada is the least "soccer" country and should never host the Men's World Cup. However, if I was debating what ass backwards, third world countries should host the World Cup by bribing the most FIFA officials, then you could answer with Qatar. We would also have accepted Russia, but that was obvious.

Qatar isn't a 3rd world country HAHAHA it's the richest country in the world pound for pound am i reading this wrong?

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by Welkin

Seriously? You are debating World Cup selection criteria and you answer with Qatar? Qatar, the selection that was so obviously corrupt that it brought down the highest levels of FIFA. Qatar is not part of my discussion in even the most remote way. I was debating that among the large, first-world countries, that Canada is the least "soccer" country and should never host the Men's World Cup. However, if I was debating what ass backwards, third world countries should host the World Cup by bribing the most FIFA officials, then you could answer with Qatar. We would also have accepted Russia, but that was obvious.

Qatar isn't a 3rd world country? Am I reading this wrong?

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Oh, I totally agree with you. It's a bright spot for sure.

But English Canadian music just hasn't really made many inroads in Quebec that could be related to its Canadianness.

What people know here is the Canadian music that's known internationally. Canada-only successes like The Tragically Hip are not widely known in Quebec outside of a tiny circle.

Well that's kind of the point that a lot of people are making - there's not a lot of overlap between the English and French sides of our culture, but that doesn't lessen Toronto's position as the cultural leader in this country. And yes, big media like Macleans and CBC being based in Toronto does matter.

As for music, I was just responding to your point that your relatives never listened to Bieber before he got big in the States, and that somehow makes him less a product of Toronto/southern Ontario. Point is, there's a huge wealth of musical talent in Toronto, and whether those artists get big internationally, nationally, or just in the Toronto area is totally irrelevant. We don't wait until someone else discovers our music before giving it a chance, and we don't think any less of it if it never leaves our borders.

Come to think of it, the art and theatre worlds are kind of like that too. Small galleries and theatre productions are all over the city. Whether they have an impact on the average person in Lethbridge really doesn't matter. They're still part of what makes Toronto the biggest cultural centre in the country. There's more to culture than mass media.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Mister F

As for music, I was just responding to your point that your relatives never listened to Bieber before he got big in the States, and that somehow makes him less a product of Toronto/southern Ontario. .

It doesn't make him less of a product of that region, but it also doesn't make his renown here something that is indicative of Toronto (the alleged Canadian cultural capital)'s influence on Quebec. In this sense, Quebecers knowing Bieber is the same as Japanese or Swedes knowing him.

If he was on a Canadian only label, won awards only at the Junos and only had visibility on MuchMusic, few people in Quebec would know him.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Mister F

Well that's kind of the point that a lot of people are making - there's not a lot of overlap between the English and French sides of our culture, but that doesn't lessen Toronto's position as the cultural leader in this country. And yes, big media like Macleans and CBC being based in Toronto does matter.

As for music, I was just responding to your point that your relatives never listened to Bieber before he got big in the States, and that somehow makes him less a product of Toronto/southern Ontario. Point is, there's a huge wealth of musical talent in Toronto, and whether those artists get big internationally, nationally, or just in the Toronto area is totally irrelevant. We don't wait until someone else discovers our music before giving it a chance, and we don't think any less of it if it never leaves our borders.

Come to think of it, the art and theatre worlds are kind of like that too. Small galleries and theatre productions are all over the city. Whether they have an impact on the average person in Lethbridge really doesn't matter. They're still part of what makes Toronto the biggest cultural centre in the country. There's more to culture than mass media.

Well said. For what it's worth, I think that Montreal does a better job of reaching the audiences in its hinterland than Toronto does with English Canada, but it doesn't change the fact that Toronto is still Canada's main cultural centre whether you're talking high culture (fine arts, academia, classical music, opera, etc.) or mass culture (tv, radio, news media, fashion, film, etc.).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Mister F

And yes, big media like Macleans and CBC being based in Toronto does matter.

.

It doesn't matter here in Quebec, as we have our own stuff based in Montreal: SRC and L'Actualité.

Some people in Anglo-Canada listen to Radio-Canada and read L'Actualité, just as some people in Quebec listen to CBC and read Maclean's. It's not really a one-way thing in Toronto's favour.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

Well said. For what it's worth, I think that Montreal does a better job of reaching the audiences in its hinterland than Toronto does with English Canada, but it doesn't change the fact that Toronto is still Canada's main cultural centre whether you're talking high culture (fine arts, academia, classical music, opera, etc.) or mass culture (tv, radio, news media, fashion, film, etc.).

That's a quantitative as opposed to a qualitative conclusion you are making.

[mistercorporate]

Jesus Christ, a complete lack of logic with this one. With most forumers, we make a post and they "get" what we're saying whether they agree or not, at most one additional post is needed to clarify any ambiguity. But some people (usually trolls, or in this case...someone that's just plain incapable of logic) just doesn't "get" simple things no matter how many ways or how many times it's explained to them. Exasperating and a total time drain.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's a quantitative as opposed to a qualitative conclusion you are making.

Quantitatively, without question Toronto is top dog. But even qualitatively it is, in my view, easily number one.

Montreal is certainly worthy of an honourable mention as the only legitimate contender for the throne and the main cultural hub for a significant region, but that's as far as it goes. I mean, as SHH has illustrated on numerous occasions, St. John's can be qualitatively said to be without question the major cultural driving force for a part of Canada. Should we include them in the discussion? Come on.

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by someone123

If I had to hazard a guess, I would say that it's less abstract than this. I think Toronto has limited relevance to the day-to-day cultural lives of people in the rest of the country. Here in Vancouver, for example, people mostly seem to be into North-America-wide stuff and a lot of them either have ties to some other country or to the US. People might move to Toronto for a job, like they might move to Calgary, but Toronto is hardly the primary or sole destination for ambitious people originating in this corner of the world. I know a lot more people who moved from BC to California than I do people who moved to Toronto, particularly if you leave out the ones who were simply going back to Ontario after a few years in BC.

Meanwhile, on the East Coast, there's a lot more emphasis on local culture. People are more inclined to watch the local news, pay attention to local bands, etc. People like a mix of local, Toronto, Montreal, and Boston sports teams. Those who move away seem to either head to Alberta if they want high-paying blue collar work or go to a diverse mix of places for other things.

Toronto itself is demographically disconnected from other parts of Canada in that a large part of its population moved there from other countries.

In any case I think the "cultural capital" stuff is awfully vague and meaningless. What is culture? What makes a place a cultural capital, and why does every country need to have one?

I'm thinking American spheres of influence is greater than any one Canadian region or city on the rest of the country. For where I live as far as entertainment goes, Hollywood or Nashville has a greater influence than any city in Canada. Sports is either local or is from across the border. Media such as news or magazines is by far largely American, CNN or Fox News, BBC World or Al Jazeera for international. Sports Illustrated, Time, News Week, National Geographic, Popular Science, Discover, GQ.. All Broadway shows/musicals i've seen have been the ones based out of America & that have either toured through Saskatchewan like Wicked or Rent, or ones that I've seen right on Broadway or in Chicago. Even perishable food like fruits & vegetables is abundant from places like California and seems more local than anything packaged from down east.

What's important in Montreal and Toronto, isn't necessarily whats followed in the rest of Canada. I have a feeling American cities influence over shadows any Canadian city in another part of this country, Montreal is probably influence more by NYC & Vancouver by Seattle etc, than is influenced by any Canadian city.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

Quantitatively, without question Toronto is top dog. But even qualitatively it is, in my view, easily number one.

.

Then I guess we in Quebec are totally missing out on something great.