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  #3961  
Old Posted May 24, 2014, 1:22 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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About a month ago the following story was printed by the Chronicle Herald. It seemed to be misleading and overly negative:
Cautionary tale of a convention centre (http://thechronicleherald.ca/metro/1...vention-centre)

Apparently the story was noticed by some people in Ottawa. The following story that mentions the Chronicle Herald story was written in the Ottawa Citizen. It is a more factual and less biased explanation of the Chronicle Herald story "facts".
Reevely: Figures showing new convention centre a success prove elusive (http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Reevely...030/story.html)

This following story was printed in the Ottawa Citizen and mentions the Chronicle Herald discussion. It is somewhat biased since it is written by someone associated with the Ottawa convention centre but it gives concrete financial information that indicates that it has been a financial success:
Convention centre is an economic success (http://www.ottawacitizen.com/busines...890/story.html)
The Ottawa Citizen story was reprinted in the Chronicle Herald:
READER’S CORNER: Ottawa centre an unqualified success (http://thechronicleherald.ca/letters...lified-success). But most of the Chronicle Herald comments were negative

Last edited by fenwick16; May 24, 2014 at 1:17 PM.
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  #3962  
Old Posted May 24, 2014, 2:12 AM
xanaxanax xanaxanax is offline
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Originally Posted by IanWatson View Post
Maybe that's what they want... to delay the convention centre. With all the new towers and upgrades to towers coming online commercial vacancy rates in the core are skyrocketing. Commerce Square is one of the least complete proposals, so perhaps they're worried they're going to end up "last to the show" and be stuck with office space they can't fill. A delay to the convention centre would be a delay to the (competing) office space associated with it.
I don't think this has the capability to cause any delays for the convention centre but if it does happen its just going to cause a counter lawsuit of the Thiel Group being sued
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  #3963  
Old Posted May 26, 2014, 7:28 AM
counterfactual counterfactual is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
About a month ago the following story was printed by the Chronicle Herald. It seemed to be misleading and overly negative:
Cautionary tale of a convention centre (http://thechronicleherald.ca/metro/1...vention-centre)

Apparently the story was noticed by some people in Ottawa. The following story that mentions the Chronicle Herald story was written in the Ottawa Citizen. It is a more factual and less biased explanation of the Chronicle Herald story "facts".
Reevely: Figures showing new convention centre a success prove elusive (http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Reevely...030/story.html)

This following story was printed in the Ottawa Citizen and mentions the Chronicle Herald discussion. It is somewhat biased since it is written by someone associated with the Ottawa convention centre but it gives concrete financial information that indicates that it has been a financial success:
Convention centre is an economic success (http://www.ottawacitizen.com/busines...890/story.html)
The Ottawa Citizen story was reprinted in the Chronicle Herald:
READER’S CORNER: Ottawa centre an unqualified success (http://thechronicleherald.ca/letters...lified-success). But most of the Chronicle Herald comments were negative
I think I've finally come to the conclusion that most people in the CH comments are retired cranks, complaining about everything.

We should get ready for more of this, as the Boomers get older and crankier.

...naturally, healthcare, already over 1/2 of the NS budget (unjustifiably) will continue to suck more and more money from everything else to keep them happy.
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  #3964  
Old Posted May 31, 2014, 3:25 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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It is great to be able to watch the Nova Centre progressing.

I did a screen capture from the Nova Scotia Webcams site and posted the corresponding floorplans of the levels currently under construction. Most of the space shown below is for exhibition space and meeting rooms of the convention centre. Part of the space along Argyle Street is retail space, which appears to be easily accessible from the convention centre.

Ceiling height for Exhibit Hall A is about 30 feet, and Exhibit Hall B is about 15 feet high (above Exhibit Hall B will be meeting rooms of about equal height - based on this link - http://www.halifax.ca/municipalclerk...heProposal.pdf).

(source: http://www.novascotiawebcams.com/hal...struction.html)



(source: http://www.halifaxconventioncentre.com/facility/ , added dimensions are from this document - http://www.halifax.ca/municipalclerk...heProposal.pdf)

Last edited by fenwick16; Jun 7, 2014 at 11:24 AM. Reason: updated NS Webcams image
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  #3965  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2014, 3:50 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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The Heritage Trust of Nova Scotia is appealing the HRM decision on April 29th to support changes to the Nova Centre design based on the Heritage Trust claim that the HRM Council decision was inconsistent with municipal planning strategy (as reported by allnovascotia.com). The appeal is to the Nova Scotia Supreme Court.

The Nova Centre project was overwhelmingly approved by HRM Council and supported by all three levels of provincial government. Elected officials represent the people, not the Heritage Trust of Nova Scotia.

I hope that people will start a letter writing campaign to the Heritage Trust and Phil Pacey to let them know that they do not have the support of the majority and are not representing the people of Nova Scotia.

Here is the contact information for the Heritage Trust of Nova Scotia - http://htns.ca/contact.html

I have sent the following email to the Heritage Trust of Nova Scotia.
To representatives of the Heritage Trust of Nova Scotia,

I would like to state my disapproval with the Heritage Trust of Nova Scotia and its decision to appeal the HRM Council decision of April 29th, 2014 which supported design changes to the Nova Centre. The Nova Centre has been overwhelmingly supported by elected municipal and provincial leaders who represent the voice of the majority. In spite of the Heritage Trust's claims to the contrary, I have no doubt that the new convention centre will draw people to the province and create jobs that will allow people to stay in Nova Scotia.

I think that the Heritage Trust should consider the municipal pride and support of the new Central Library when it considers public opinion regarding progress and new architecture. I can remember Halifax in the late 1960's and 1970's, and in my opinion, modern Halifax is a much more attractive city than it was 45 years ago. Halifax heritage buildings of the 1700's, 1800's and 1900's were built by developers who helped shape the city just as new architect continues to help define the city.

Most people seem to want both older heritage buildings and new interesting architecture; hopefully both the old and new buildings will be the heritage of future generations. In my opinion, the Heritage Trust is out of step with the opinions of the majority and by alienating the majority are denying itself the support that it needs to achieve meaningful heritage objectives.

Last edited by fenwick16; Jun 6, 2014 at 2:25 AM.
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  #3966  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2014, 11:13 AM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
The Heritage Trust of Nova Scotia is appealing the HRM decision on April 29th to support changes to the Nova Centre design based on the Heritage Trust claim that the HRM Council decision was inconsistent with municipal planning strategy (as reported by allnovascotia.com).
They are allowed to appeal this decision too? When does this end. Their input time is over.
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  #3967  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2014, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
The Heritage Trust of Nova Scotia is appealing the HRM decision on April 29th to support changes to the Nova Centre design based on the Heritage Trust claim that the HRM Council decision was inconsistent with municipal planning strategy (as reported by allnovascotia.com).

The Nova Centre project was overwhelmingly approved by HRM Council and supported by all three levels of provincial government. Elected officials represent the people, not the Heritage Trust of Nova Scotia.

I hope that people will start a letter writing campaign to the Heritage Trust and Phil Pacey to let them know that they do not have the support of the majority and are not representing the people of Nova Scotia.

Here is the contact information for the Heritage Trust of Nova Scotia - http://htns.ca/contact.html

I have sent the following email to the Heritage Trust of Nova Scotia.
To representatives of the Heritage Trust of Nova Scotia,

I would like to state my disapproval with the Heritage Trust of Nova Scotia and its decision to appeal the HRM Council decision of April 29th, 2014 which supported design changes to the Nova Centre. The Nova Centre has been overwhelmingly supported by elected municipal and provincial leaders who represent the voice of the majority. In spite of the Heritage Trust's claims to the contrary, I have no doubt that the new convention centre will draw people to the province and create jobs that will allow people to stay in Nova Scotia.

I think that the Heritage Trust should consider the municipal pride and support of the new Central Library when it considers public opinion regarding progress and new architecture. I can remember Halifax in the late 1960's and 1970's, and in my opinion, modern Halifax is a much more attractive city than it was 45 years ago. Halifax heritage buildings of the 1700's, 1800's and 1900's were built by developers who helped shape the city just as new architect continues to help define the city.

Most people seem to want both older heritage buildings and new interesting architecture; hopefully both the old and new buildings will be the heritage of future generations. In my opinion, the Heritage Trust is out of step with the opinions of the majority and by alienating the majority are denying itself the support that it needs to achieve meaningful heritage objectives.
Here, here!
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  #3968  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2014, 2:57 PM
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What is the mandate of this "Heritage Trust"? Is it to stop ALL development? I thought they were supposedly concerned with heritage buildings. Where are they here and therefore why are they even able or allowed to attempt to intervene on this development?
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  #3969  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2014, 4:24 PM
Drybrain Drybrain is offline
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Originally Posted by teddifax View Post
What is the mandate of this "Heritage Trust"? Is it to stop ALL development? I thought they were supposedly concerned with heritage buildings. Where are they here and therefore why are they even able or allowed to attempt to intervene on this development?
I think they long ago lost sight of their mandate and are now just obstructionists. They're not even effective at preserving historic buildings--they have little credibility with developers, politicians, or the public at large, and yet they're still the city's main heritage group. As a result they've totally ghettoized themselves and fostered resentment to heritage advocacy from people who see themselves as pro-development. They're useless, both for those of us who want to foster new development and those of us who want an effective heritage lobby. (And those of us who want both.)

Having said that, they are ALLOWED to express their opinion. Any citizen or citizen group can do so, and there's nothing wrong with that.
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  #3970  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2014, 9:24 PM
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wrote the Heritage Trust stating my disapproval in their appeal and this was their response:


Thank you for your letters. They expressed similar concerns so I am replying to you at the same time. I would welcome your ideas about what, specifically, Heritage Trust should be doing to protect heritage buildings.


The Trust speaks for the protection, retention and re-use of our built heritage, which is a form of economic development. If we speak against proposals it is not because they are modern. The new library is a stand-alone building almost on its own stage and is, indeed, a landmark. However, that is rather different from the usual situation, where new development impacts the existing building stock. Sensitively designed, new buildings complement their heritage neighbours. Unfortunately, sometimes the effect is not “friendly” to what we wish to protect.

It is hardly“anti-progress” to speak in favour of upholding legal protections that have been built into planning law. While residents may take it for granted, the Citadel is a major attraction for visitors and a source of wealth to the city and province. We welcome far more tourists than convention goers and it makes sense to protect such an important tourist attraction. The Citadel’s siting was based on prominence and being able to see – and to be seen --for distances in several directions. Now, unless you are on a huge cruise liner, when sailing into the harbour you can barely see the Citadel. The view towards the harbour has been equally compromised. Progress is change for the better, but some change leads to a poorer environment, especially for heritage; it is not “progress”. That is why we focus on ensuring that the protection we have in law is maintained.

It is all too easy to argue for “special cases” that should override the Plan. The YMCA proposal is an example. The apparent pressing need for more sports/gym facilities on the Peninsula -- and perhaps a desire to help out the good people at the Y -- was used to argue for extra height for a new development at Sackville and South Park. And yet I read -- with some surprise -- in yesterday’s paper that “more gym space is not required on the Halifax peninsula despite the recent shuttering of multiple gyms, a municipal staff report says.” The CBC building is a solid, landmark building with public value (and a lot of embodied energy). The argument for sending it to the landfill seems rather weak right now. (You might appreciate architect Sydney Dumaresq’s article at http://htns.ca/pdf_Griffin/Vol35.3-Sep10.pdf , p. 3.)

The process, under which permission was granted to move ahead with a different design for the Nova Centre, and the overriding of some planning rules concern The Trust, not the visual qualities of a ”modern” building. While others may not feel they can speak out about it, silence does not necessarily mean agreement with what happened. As to any economic arguments for or against the Nova Centre, I leave them to people like Allan Robertson (Save the View) and the Auditor General of NS, who know far more than most of us about evaluating and analyzing data. I don’t believe that either one puts any faith in the projections of economic benefits accruing from the Centre.

Regards,

Linda Forbes
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  #3971  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2014, 12:41 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haliguy View Post
wrote the Heritage Trust stating my disapproval in their appeal and this was their response:


Thank you for your letters. They expressed similar concerns so I am replying to you at the same time. I would welcome your ideas about what, specifically, Heritage Trust should be doing to protect heritage buildings.


The Trust speaks for the protection, retention and re-use of our built heritage, which is a form of economic development. If we speak against proposals it is not because they are modern. The new library is a stand-alone building almost on its own stage and is, indeed, a landmark. However, that is rather different from the usual situation, where new development impacts the existing building stock. Sensitively designed, new buildings complement their heritage neighbours. Unfortunately, sometimes the effect is not “friendly” to what we wish to protect.

It is hardly“anti-progress” to speak in favour of upholding legal protections that have been built into planning law. While residents may take it for granted, the Citadel is a major attraction for visitors and a source of wealth to the city and province. We welcome far more tourists than convention goers and it makes sense to protect such an important tourist attraction. The Citadel’s siting was based on prominence and being able to see – and to be seen --for distances in several directions. Now, unless you are on a huge cruise liner, when sailing into the harbour you can barely see the Citadel. The view towards the harbour has been equally compromised. Progress is change for the better, but some change leads to a poorer environment, especially for heritage; it is not “progress”. That is why we focus on ensuring that the protection we have in law is maintained.

It is all too easy to argue for “special cases” that should override the Plan. The YMCA proposal is an example. The apparent pressing need for more sports/gym facilities on the Peninsula -- and perhaps a desire to help out the good people at the Y -- was used to argue for extra height for a new development at Sackville and South Park. And yet I read -- with some surprise -- in yesterday’s paper that “more gym space is not required on the Halifax peninsula despite the recent shuttering of multiple gyms, a municipal staff report says.” The CBC building is a solid, landmark building with public value (and a lot of embodied energy). The argument for sending it to the landfill seems rather weak right now. (You might appreciate architect Sydney Dumaresq’s article at http://htns.ca/pdf_Griffin/Vol35.3-Sep10.pdf , p. 3.)

The process, under which permission was granted to move ahead with a different design for the Nova Centre, and the overriding of some planning rules concern The Trust, not the visual qualities of a ”modern” building. While others may not feel they can speak out about it, silence does not necessarily mean agreement with what happened. As to any economic arguments for or against the Nova Centre, I leave them to people like Allan Robertson (Save the View) and the Auditor General of NS, who know far more than most of us about evaluating and analyzing data. I don’t believe that either one puts any faith in the projections of economic benefits accruing from the Centre.

Regards,

Linda Forbes
Thank you for posting her response. It is good to see that they received letters (and emails) regarding their stand against the convention centre.

I have many issues with her response:

1) Why would a convention centre, that will most certainly bring additional visitors to the province, result in fewer visitors to the Citadel? The constricted viewpoint that people visit the Citadel to see the Harbour astounds me. Why would visitors not want to look down and see the entire city? I feel that the new convention centre with its larger capacity for bigger conventions will increase the number of visitors to the Citadel.
2) The Heritage Trust claims that rules were broken and people need to speak out about it annoys me. Why can't they understand that rules are made through elected officials and can be changed through elected officials? In any case, the convention centre with it specified building heights are written into HRM by Design, so no height rules are being broken.
3) It seems as though the Heritage Trust feels that most people oppose the convention centre but are remaining silent. Why can't they understand that most people like modern architecture and are in favour of the convention centre?
4) The Auditor General's claim that only one study was conducted regarding the convention centre indicated his lack of knowledge, and therefore his opinion just showed his ignorance in spite of having the appointed position of Auditor General.

Last edited by fenwick16; Jun 8, 2014 at 1:34 PM.
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  #3972  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2014, 2:04 AM
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Ziobrop Ziobrop is offline
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I will have to double check, but even with the bonus height the nova center complies with the view planes in the bylaw.

The y project I believe violates the view plane so argue on that.

Finally I could make the argument that the citadel was built to defend against a land attack from the non harbour side so the important views to preserve are the other way, where no view planes exist iirc.
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  #3973  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2014, 4:01 AM
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Dmajackson Dmajackson is offline
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Originally Posted by Ziobrop View Post
I will have to double check, but even with the bonus height the nova center complies with the view planes in the bylaw.

The y project I believe violates the view plane so argue on that.

Finally I could make the argument that the citadel was built to defend against a land attack from the non harbour side so the important views to preserve are the other way, where no view planes exist iirc.
Yes, No, and No.

Nova Centre meets the viewplanes bylaw. The George's Island (?) viewplane is the reason there is only three towers and of them is shaped like a triangle.

The New Halifax YMCA does not violate the viewplanes bylaw. There is a viewplane east of the site (passes over City Centre Atlantic). The approved amendment for that project was regarding the height limits adjacent Citadel Hill.

The Citadel was mainly built to protect Halifax from a sea-based attack. The city was built almost exclusively as a means for the British to have a stronghold from which they could launch their attack of Louisbourg and eventually the rest of New France. If you look carefully at Citadel Hill you'll notice most of the cannon holes are located on the harbour side. Eventually fortifications were built further down the harbour on Georges, McNabs and in Point Pleasant Park making Citadel Hill unlikely to be attacked. Land based attacks were deterred by the town wall (with guard posts), and Fort Sackville.
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  #3974  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2014, 12:52 PM
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Yes, No, and No.

Nova Centre meets the viewplanes bylaw. The George's Island (?) viewplane is the reason there is only three towers and of them is shaped like a triangle.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmajackson View Post
The New Halifax YMCA does not violate the viewplanes bylaw. There is a viewplane east of the site (passes over City Centre Atlantic). The approved amendment for that project was regarding the height limits adjacent Citadel Hill.
I was unsure of this. I knew there was some density bonusing used to grant height, but i was unsure of the viewplanes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmajackson View Post
The Citadel was mainly built to protect Halifax from a sea-based attack. The city was built almost exclusively as a means for the British to have a stronghold from which they could launch their attack of Louisbourg and eventually the rest of New France. If you look carefully at Citadel Hill you'll notice most of the cannon holes are located on the harbour side. Eventually fortifications were built further down the harbour on Georges, McNabs and in Point Pleasant Park making Citadel Hill unlikely to be attacked. Land based attacks were deterred by the town wall (with guard posts), and Fort Sackville.
Parks Canada Disagrees (from: http://www.pc.gc.ca/lhn-nhs/ns/halif...l/natcul1.aspx )
Halifax Citadel National Historic Site of Canada
The fourth fort on Citadel Hill was completed in 1856 and protected Halifax from a possible landward attack.
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  #3975  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2014, 5:32 PM
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Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
Thank you for posting her response. It is good to see that they received letters (and emails) regarding their stand against the convention centre.

I have many issues with her response:

1) Why would a convention centre, that will most certainly bring additional visitors to the province, result in fewer visitors to the Citadel? The constricted viewpoint that people visit the Citadel to see the Harbour astounds me. Why would visitors not want to look down and see the entire city? I feel that the new convention centre with its larger capacity for bigger conventions will increase the number of visitors to the Citadel.
2) The Heritage Trust claims that rules were broken and people need to speak out about it annoys me. Why can't they understand that rules are made through elected officials and can be changed through elected officials? In any case, the convention centre with it specified building heights are written into HRM by Design, so no height rules are being broken.
3) It seems as though the Heritage Trust feels that most people oppose the convention centre but are remaining silent. Why can't they understand that most people like modern architecture and are in favour of the convention centre?
4) The Auditor General's claim that only one study was conducted regarding the convention centre indicated his lack of knowledge, and therefore his opinion just showed his ignorance in spite of having the appointed position of Auditor General.

No problem...I agree all of what you said and pretty much said the all the same things in repsonse to thier letter.
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  #3976  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2014, 11:43 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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There was a story in the Chronicle Herald regarding the Heritage Trust appeal. There is also some news on the progress of the Nova Centre approvals (below). The Nova Centre presentation for the Design Review Meeting on Thursday, June 12th is given at this link - http://www.halifax.ca/boardscom/drc/140612DRCagenda.php

(source: http://www.herald.ns.ca/business/121...lifax-projects )
TAYLOR: Heritage Trust challenges two Halifax projects
ROGER TAYLOR BUSINESS COLUMNIST

Published June 9, 2014 - 7:52pm
Last Updated June 9, 2014 - 8:02pm
.
.
.
It just so happens that Argyle Developments is making its final presentation to the design review committee later this week.

If the development company receives approval from that committee, above-ground construction of Nova Centre will proceed.

The aim is to have the convention centre completed in time to accept events by early 2016.

Argyle, which is a subsidiary of Halifax developer Rank Inc., was given special permission from the provincial government to proceed with below-ground construction before all aspects of the approval process were completed for the project.

That was also done to allow tight deadlines for the convention centre to be met.

It is not certain whether the judicial review will delay construction of the Nova Centre, which was already delayed for more than a year due to public input that led to major changes in the configuration of the one-million-square-foot project.

.
.
.

Last edited by fenwick16; Jun 10, 2014 at 12:13 AM.
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  #3977  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2014, 1:42 PM
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Thanks, fenwick. Taylor's piece makes for interesting reading. He goes on to quote Wolfgang Thiel, who himself is being challenged by the good folks at the Anti-Development -- er -- Heritage Trust over his 22nd Commerce Square development, as saying:
"(I’m) getting kind of tired getting lawyers all the time to defend yourself while you’re trying to do something good for the city. (...) Why should you defend yourself in front of court after you get approval for a project that should bring Halifax downtown, the city’s core, back to life?”
This was apparently offered without irony since he is, at the same time, challenging fellow developer Joe Ramia over the Nova Centre project.

Between battling the city, obstructionist self-interest groups, and each other, it must take a special breed of masochist to work as a developer in this city.
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  #3978  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2014, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by ns_kid View Post
This was apparently offered without irony since he is, at the same time, challenging fellow developer Joe Ramia over the Nova Centre project.

Between battling the city, obstructionist self-interest groups, and each other, it must take a special breed of masochist to work as a developer in this city.
I believe Wolfgang Thiel is challenging the province for breaking its own laws with regards to fast tracking the Nova Centre, not Joe Ramia. I recall Thiel saying he supports the Nova Centre, just not the special treatment. Regardless, it is a challenge to be a developer in this city, no doubt.
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  #3979  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2014, 1:21 AM
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Waye Mason Waye Mason is offline
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Originally Posted by Ziobrop View Post
Parks Canada Disagrees (from: http://www.pc.gc.ca/lhn-nhs/ns/halif...l/natcul1.aspx )
Halifax Citadel National Historic Site of Canada
The fourth fort on Citadel Hill was completed in 1856 and protected Halifax from a possible landward attack.
The Common was cleared to provide clear fields of fire in the event the Americans landed troops and marched on Halifax from landward. That is why there was ALSO a string of forts up the peninsula (Fort Needham) and on the old Windsor road leading to Bedford (the Blockhouse).
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  #3980  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2014, 3:00 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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Originally Posted by Haligonian88 View Post
I believe Wolfgang Thiel is challenging the province for breaking its own laws with regards to fast tracking the Nova Centre, not Joe Ramia. I recall Thiel saying he supports the Nova Centre, just not the special treatment. Regardless, it is a challenge to be a developer in this city, no doubt.
That gets back to the statement of Provincial Interest and the way it is written is pretty solid. I don't think he'll have much solid ground to stand on.
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