HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #3961  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2021, 6:41 AM
Urban_Sky Urban_Sky is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Montreal
Posts: 473
Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
You mean the same one they cannot admit to? You know the one that showed the one they kept was the one that was losing more money?
In 1988, the VIA services along the CN corridor lost $62.4 million, whereas those along the CP corridor lost $110.2 million:


Re-post from: Post #3011

There is only one person in this thread which cannot admit that $110.2 million is more than $62.4 million and his name is Micheal Artindale.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3962  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2021, 9:25 AM
acottawa acottawa is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 16,661
Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
Then a night train would work, but it would be more like a full day.
That isn't useful to most travelers.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3963  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2021, 9:30 AM
acottawa acottawa is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 16,661
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
Applying that to Western Canada, that means the only potentially viable pairing for a night train (viable in terms of distance and market size) is Calgary-Vancouver.
Probably, but I don't know how long that would take if they were trying to minimize time (I think the Rocky Mountaineer goes slower than it could for tourist reasons).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3964  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2021, 9:34 AM
acottawa acottawa is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 16,661
Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
Countries have different reasons for connecting to different countries than they do to connecting within themselves. Why not compare Canada to other large nation.
The top 5 countries are:
Russia
Canada
China
USA
Brazil
Russia has an extensive network of long distance trains, but it also has a Soviet legacy of trains being the only practical way of getting around and a culture that accepts barracks type layouts for third class. Not sure that is the case in Canada.

China is a similar story.

The US has a similar approach to Canada.

Brazil has hardly any intercity rail.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3965  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2021, 2:58 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 37,483
Quote:
Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
The other problem is the product. I have no idea why. But lie-flat airline seats that airlines use on long-haul flights in business class, haven't caught on with rail operators. But they'd be perfect for sleeper service on trains like the Ocean. And airlines are now fitting them in narrowbodies that are about the same width as passenger railcars. The current basic product of a regular rail seat is poor for that long a trip. And it's a big jump to a cabin, especially for a single traveler.
At one point there used to be two different coach cars on long haul passenger trains in Canada... there were regular coaches which kind of felt like a Greyhound bus, and there were Dayniter cars which offered more comfortable seats and a more polished, somewhat upscale vibe. Kind of like business class, but not with lie-flat seats which really didn't exist then.

I suppose somewhere in the 80s a decision was made to split the difference and now VIA just has one type of long-distance coach service which is nicer than the old type but maybe not quite as good as the old Dayniters.

The idea that you are getting at, i.e. some sort of accommodation that bridges the gap between coaches and sleeping cars was attempted in North America back the 50s but it never really took off.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3966  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2021, 3:01 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 37,483
Quote:
Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Russia has an extensive network of long distance trains, but it also has a Soviet legacy of trains being the only practical way of getting around and a culture that accepts barracks type layouts for third class. Not sure that is the case in Canada.

China is a similar story.
I remember years ago when I was younger riding around China in this type of sleeping car... my God it would be a total disaster if these were implemented in Canada. I just can't even imagine how bad it would be. The Canadian mindset would not be able to compute this kind of setup.

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3967  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2021, 4:04 PM
GoTrans GoTrans is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 691
If you think that you can operate an overnight service that runs between Calgary and Vancouver in 12 hours your are in dreamland. In 1981 it took 19.5 hrs for the Canadian to travel the CP route a distance of 1,030 km, departing Calgary at 10:30 MT and arriving in Vancouver at 7:00 PT. With the increase in long slow freights it would take even longer today. In order to complete the trip in comparable time a massive amount of investment would be required in order to make the schedule faster and reliable. The mudslides, rockslides and washouts of a month ago have shown fragility of the topography.

It would make more sense to run a night train from Calgary to Winnipeg with the night time portion between Regina and Winnipeg. The Canadian took 19.5 hours to go a distance of 1,340 km from Winnipeg to Calgary in 1981.

The average speed of travel on each route in 1981 is 52.8 Km/hr for Calgary > Van and 68.7 km/hr for Calgary > Wpg. See the table below for the average speed required for different travel times.

Distance (km) Cal > Van 1030
Cal > Wpg 1340

Travel Time (Hr) 19.5 18 16 14 12
Avg Speed (km/hr)
Cal > Van 52.8 57.2 64.4 73.6 85.8
Cal> Wpg 68.7 74.4 83.8 95.7 111.7

Clearly a travel time of 16 hours on the prairies is probably the best that can be achieved but who knows how much that would cost.

Just getting the travel time to 18 hours through the mountains would cost billions so any increase in speed is going to come through small incremental increases in capacity
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3968  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2021, 4:09 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 25,377
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
The idea that you are getting at, i.e. some sort of accommodation that bridges the gap between coaches and sleeping cars was attempted in North America back the 50s but it never really took off.
From what I can see those still had roomettes and double cabins. I am thinking more of something like this:



Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3969  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2021, 4:18 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 37,483
Quote:
Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
From what I can see those still had roomettes and double cabins. I am thinking more of something like this:



I guess it's possible. But I have never heard of any railway that does airline style lie-flat seats. It's always coaches or sleeping cars. I'm assuming it's because railway passenger cars aren't subject to the same space constraints that aircraft are.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3970  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2021, 4:19 PM
thewave46 thewave46 is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,530
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
Look at the Winnipeg-Toronto fares for VIA and the airlines, then look at travel times and frequency. Tell me what advantage exactly VIA offers. Scenery maybe? Once will be more than enough for most people. I guess VIA stops in Capreol and Sioux Lookout so there's that.

Face it, you can throw everything at it and you will never, ever, ever draw major market share on that route. Better to focus on the routes where rail actually stands a chance.
...rocks and trees and trees and rocks and rocks and trees and trees and rocks....

There's a bunch of overlap, but the most efficient way to move people roughly comes down to this:

Bus: between small-medium sized communities and a larger hub with a distance of <500km.
Regular Rail: between larger centres with a distance of <500km.
High-speed rail: between major metros with a distance of <1000km.
Airplane: between larger centres with a distance of >1000km, or those who are very time-sensitive.

Admittedly, North America's focus on the car absolutely annihilates a lot of the <500km demand. Doubly so in smaller places, where a car is essentially mandatory at a certain point or one is stuck.

This is demonstrated by:
- the decline in short-haul flights to smaller destinations
- the decline of long-haul bus travel, except as a subsidized government service
- VIA's continued irrelevance on long-haul travel, except for tourism and a continued mandated service to certain communities.

In essence, bus travel will become the 'regional service' from the nearest hub city to smaller outlying communities for those without a car. The smaller/farther the community, the more likely the government will need to provide a subsidy/service.

Airlines will continue to dominate the long-haul transportation option. The speed simply can't be beat for convenience, and I'd wager a full airliner with 150-300 passengers still beats a poky diesel train in terms of efficiency over longer distances.

That leaves rail a handful of routes in this country where it might be something viable or provide a decent value on the subsidy it gets.

Last edited by thewave46; Dec 30, 2021 at 4:41 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3971  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2021, 4:26 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 37,483
Quote:
Originally Posted by thewave46 View Post
...rocks and trees and trees and rocks and rocks and trees and trees and rocks....

There's a bunch of overlap, but the most efficient way to move people roughly comes down to this:

Bus: between small-medium sized communities and a larger hub with a distance of <500km.
Regular Rail: between larger centres with a distance of <500km.
High-speed rail: between major metros with a distance of <1000km.
Airplane: between larger centres with a distance of >1000km, or those who are very time-sensitive.

Admittedly, North America's focus on the car absolutely annihilates a lot of the <500km demand. Doubly so in smaller places, where a car is essentially mandatory at a certain point or one is stuck.

This is demonstrated by:
- the decline in short-haul flights to smaller destinations
- the decline of long-haul bus travel, except as a subsidized government service
- VIA's continued irrelevance on long-haul travel, except for tourism and a continued mandated service to certain communities.

In essence, bus travel will become the 'regional service' to the nearest hub city to smaller outlying communities for those without a car. The smaller/farther the community, the more likely the government will need to provide a subsidy/service.

Airlines will continue to dominate the long-haul transportation option. The speed simply can't be beat for convenience, and I'd wager a full airliner with 150-300 passengers still beats a poky diesel train in terms of efficiency over longer distances.

That leaves rail a handful of routes in this country where it might be something viable or provide a decent value on the subsidy it gets.
I think that's a fair assessment. The future of rail in this country is in regional service. Calgary-Edmonton/Banff, Regina-Saskatoon, Vancouver-Seattle, Halifax-Moncton type stuff. Basically applying the template used with reasonable success for many years in the Quebec City-Windsor corridor. Not meandering multi-day long haul transcontinental trips.

Unfortunately in most places outside of the corridor, we're starting from practically scratch when it comes to regional rail so it's not like it can be easily scaled up.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3972  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2021, 4:35 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 25,377
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
I guess it's possible. But I have never heard of any railway that does airline style lie-flat seats. It's always coaches or sleeping cars. I'm assuming it's because railway passenger cars aren't subject to the same space constraints that aircraft are.
Obviously doesn't have to be as fancy. But the point here is that airlines can fit this in an Airbus A321 that has a cabin floor width of just over 12 ft. So I would think something similar could be ginned up for rail. And there's even more space efficient configurations than the one I showed. Alternating 1-1 for maximum individual privacy. Alternating rows of 2-2 and 1-1 for a mix of two seat couples and individual seats. Etc. It's definitely a lot more space efficient than roomettes and cabins.

I get that most railways might not consider airline style lie flats. But it seems to me that is largely because they have a lot more options that fill all kinds of needs, and there is no need for a cheaper individual sleeper option. On the other hand, VIA makes you choose between a standard seat and a cabin. There's no choice of a stacked bunk like you see in Asia or Europe. This could actually be a space where VIA could lead on design for a requirement that is fairly unique to the North American operating context.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3973  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2021, 4:40 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 25,377
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
I think that's a fair assessment. The future of rail in this country is in regional service. Calgary-Edmonton/Banff, Regina-Saskatoon, Vancouver-Seattle, Halifax-Moncton type stuff. Basically applying the template used with reasonable success for many years in the Quebec City-Windsor corridor. Not meandering multi-day long haul transcontinental trips.

Unfortunately in most places outside of the corridor, we're starting from practically scratch when it comes to regional rail so it's not like it can be easily scaled up.
Agreed. My big hope is that HFR gives VIA and the CIB institutional experience on actually building up a large regional operation that isn't based on entirely on legacy experience, arrangements and kit. They can then transfer that experience to other regional corridors, as they get funding.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3974  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2021, 4:49 PM
VANRIDERFAN's Avatar
VANRIDERFAN VANRIDERFAN is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Regina
Posts: 5,230
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
I think that's a fair assessment. The future of rail in this country is in regional service. Calgary-Edmonton/Banff, Regina-Saskatoon, Vancouver-Seattle, Halifax-Moncton type stuff. Basically applying the template used with reasonable success for many years in the Quebec City-Windsor corridor. Not meandering multi-day long haul transcontinental trips.

Unfortunately in most places outside of the corridor, we're starting from practically scratch when it comes to regional rail so it's not like it can be easily scaled up.
Take for example Brandon.

Back in the day there was regular train service east-west and south. Now the only train service is a shack 20 miles to the north of the city and you never know when the train will be there or you can go another 20 miles to the west to Rivers and at least there is a coffee shop to hang out.

Bus service - once again there was service in all four directions with a regular schedule. Now there is only a small mini bus service to Winnipeg airport that you can book to get on and the schedule is adhered to.

Air Service. At one time West Jet had a regular service in the morning and afternoon - Calgary to Brandon to Toronto. A great service to get to two hub cities. Then WestJet cut the service and there was nothing for a few years. Now there is a flight to Calgary once per day.

As of now you are pretty much restricted to a car to get to Winnipeg. There are lots of abandoned rail right of ways across the province that could be used for passenger rail only but then bridges will have to be rebuilt, railbeds upgraded and rail re-laid. I doubt that will ever happen.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3975  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2021, 4:52 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 37,483
Quote:
Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN View Post
Take for example Brandon.

Back in the day there was regular train service east-west and south. Now the only train service is a shack 20 miles to the north of the city and you never know when the train will be there or you can go another 20 miles to the west to Rivers and at least there is a coffee shop to hang out.

Bus service - once again there was service in all four directions with a regular schedule. Now there is only a small mini bus service to Winnipeg airport that you can book to get on and the schedule is adhered to.

Air Service. At one time West Jet had a regular service in the morning and afternoon - Calgary to Brandon to Toronto. A great service to get to two hub cities. Then WestJet cut the service and there was nothing for a few years. Now there is a flight to Calgary once per day.

As of now you are pretty much restricted to a car to get to Winnipeg. There are lots of abandoned rail right of ways across the province that could be used for passenger rail only but then bridges will have to be rebuilt, railbeds upgraded and rail re-laid. I doubt that will ever happen.
VIA doesn't even call on Brandon North anymore. You have to go to Rivers to catch the train. And if you have the means to get to Rivers (43 km away), you're probably just going to use that vehicle to go all the way to wherever you're going.

Brandon is a pretty good example of a city with a decent population and isn't isolated that has next to nothing in terms of transportation options. The major towns in Northern Manitoba are pretty bad too, but at least The Pas and Thompson have rail service right in town.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3976  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2021, 4:53 PM
thewave46 thewave46 is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,530
Quote:
Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN View Post
Take for example Brandon.

Back in the day there was regular train service east-west and south. Now the only train service is a shack 20 miles to the north of the city and you never know when the train will be there or you can go another 20 miles to the west to Rivers and at least there is a coffee shop to hang out.

Bus service - once again there was service in all four directions with a regular schedule. Now there is only a small mini bus service to Winnipeg airport that you can book to get on and the schedule is adhered to.

Air Service. At one time West Jet had a regular service in the morning and afternoon - Calgary to Brandon to Toronto. A great service to get to two hub cities. Then WestJet cut the service and there was nothing for a few years. Now there is a flight to Calgary once per day.

As of now you are pretty much restricted to a car to get to Winnipeg. There are lots of abandoned rail right of ways across the province that could be used for passenger rail only but then bridges will have to be rebuilt, railbeds upgraded and rail re-laid. I doubt that will ever happen.
The capital investment is just too huge, trains too inefficient for small numbers of passengers and existing railways too well used by freight to really justify rail for such a project.

I'm surprised there's no bus service though, given that Brandon is the second largest community in Manitoba that's not terribly far from Winnipeg.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3977  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2021, 9:31 PM
rbt rbt is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,381
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
I remember years ago when I was younger riding around China in this type of sleeping car... my God it would be a total disaster if these were implemented in Canada. I just can't even imagine how bad it would be. The Canadian mindset would not be able to compute this kind of setup.
It's been 11 years since I took a Marine Atlantic ferry (I believe they've renovated), but at that time they were something like this from Sydney to Port aux Basque:

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3978  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2021, 9:48 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 37,483
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbt View Post
It's been 11 years since I took a Marine Atlantic ferry (I believe they've renovated), but at that time they were something like this from Sydney to Port aux Basque:

That's interesting, I didn't know Marine Atlantic had those types of open sleeping accommodations.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3979  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2021, 1:50 PM
VANRIDERFAN's Avatar
VANRIDERFAN VANRIDERFAN is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Regina
Posts: 5,230
So if Canada won't get off its ass, it looks like the Yanks will do it for us.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/bid...nada-1.6288151



A troubling sign of Canada's inability to make a fucking decision.

Schumer has blamed Canada for inaction. In a January 2020 letter to Canadian officials, the Democratic leader said the U.S. has upgraded train stations throughout upstate New York in recent years while Canadians officials have ignored "the luxury and convenience of a brand new, pre-clearance-ready space that meets all modern IT and spatial requirements."

"Despite the available infrastructure and a willingness on the part of local officials and United States Customs and Border Protection, pre-clearance is still not available for rail passengers entering Canada," Schumer wrote.

Buttigieg and Schumer will have some hurdles to clear if they're serious about jump-starting Canadian service.

A spokesperson for Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA) said a Canadian pre-clearance facility isn't planned for Niagara Falls, N.Y. — or anywhere else south of the border.

"Canada continues to explore the potential for Canadian pre-clearance operations in both the traveller and commercial streams. There are no specific timelines or locations at this time," Rebecca Purdy said in a statement.

Montreal travellers are also in the dark about the upgrades that could be coming to their city's central train station. A pre-clearance facility would allow travellers to do their border checks before boarding in Canada, speeding up train travel between Montreal and points south.

"A specific timeframe for potential U.S. pre-clearance services at Montreal's Central Train Station has not been set. The Government of Canada has invited local and regional stakeholders to submit a proposal to the U.S. and Canadian governments for consideration," said Magali Deussing, a spokesperson for Public Safety Canada.


A residue of the WWII Alaska Highway project means that the US continues to fund the maintenance of the only land route between Alaska and the lower 48.


It's just the way we roll!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3980  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2021, 2:34 PM
Urban_Sky Urban_Sky is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Montreal
Posts: 473
Quote:
Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN View Post
So if Canada won't get off its ass, it looks like the Yanks will do it for us.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/bid...nada-1.6288151



A troubling sign of Canada's inability to make a fucking decision.

Schumer has blamed Canada for inaction. In a January 2020 letter to Canadian officials, the Democratic leader said the U.S. has upgraded train stations throughout upstate New York in recent years while Canadians officials have ignored "the luxury and convenience of a brand new, pre-clearance-ready space that meets all modern IT and spatial requirements."

"Despite the available infrastructure and a willingness on the part of local officials and United States Customs and Border Protection, pre-clearance is still not available for rail passengers entering Canada," Schumer wrote.

Buttigieg and Schumer will have some hurdles to clear if they're serious about jump-starting Canadian service.

A spokesperson for Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA) said a Canadian pre-clearance facility isn't planned for Niagara Falls, N.Y. — or anywhere else south of the border.

"Canada continues to explore the potential for Canadian pre-clearance operations in both the traveller and commercial streams. There are no specific timelines or locations at this time," Rebecca Purdy said in a statement.

Montreal travellers are also in the dark about the upgrades that could be coming to their city's central train station. A pre-clearance facility would allow travellers to do their border checks before boarding in Canada, speeding up train travel between Montreal and points south.

"A specific timeframe for potential U.S. pre-clearance services at Montreal's Central Train Station has not been set. The Government of Canada has invited local and regional stakeholders to submit a proposal to the U.S. and Canadian governments for consideration," said Magali Deussing, a spokesperson for Public Safety Canada.


[…]

It's just the way we roll!
Pre-Clearance only works if you can seal the train (or at least part of it) until the border. The only stations where cross-border passenger figures could possibly justify building a Canadian pre-Clearance facility would be New York Penn, Albany-Rensselear and (if Amtrak and VIA can be motivated to reroute their stations in Detroit and Windsor) Detroit Michigan Central Station whereas Passengers from Niagara Falls/NY can just walk across the border and enter on the Canadian side and passengers from Seattle clear customs conveniently at Pacific Central Station in Vancouver. However, how do you want to keep pre-cleared passengers from NYP/ALB separate from uncleared intermediary passengers for the 4-8 hours it takes to reach the border - and how are they supposed to have access to the refreshments offered in the Bar car?

On the contrary, I see American inaction in getting the pre-clearance facility at Gare Centrale built as the largest barrier to speeding up the Adirondack, extending the Vermonter back to Montreal (thus presumably converting the Adirondack to overnight service, like in the days of the Montrealer) and restoring a Montreal-Boston service…

Last edited by Urban_Sky; Dec 31, 2021 at 6:13 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 7:04 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.