PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread II

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by Justin7

Sorry, I love Philly, but it does not compete with BOS/NYC/DC when it comes to mass transit.

There are many reasons for this. Money, Septa's suburban leadership, councilmanic prerogative, etc.

In Philadelphia mass transit is mostly seen as something used by people who can't afford a car, which is not the case in other NEC cities.

The metro is a combination of a subway system and regional rail so its much different from Philly's subway system. Imagine if the demographics that use RR were actually using our subway system- it would be very different. DC's transit network is a bit different from most other older cities in that there is no significant unified commuter heavy rail network running in parallel to a subway/elevated heavy rail system. The reach of their subway system into the burbs is also unique to my knowledge amongst American cities- although BART may be similar- never been out there.

SEPTA funding is not going to change the demographics of the ridership of the BSL and MFL nor is is going to reverse the remote work trends that have slashed commuter ridership. What SEPTA can do realistically is expedite station improvements (ADA access, station refreshes) and replacing rolling stock- something that is underway for the MFL already. Different people use the subway in philly vs NYC and DC- although NYC is having its own issues with crime and reliability of the subways.

[BroadandMarket]

Originally Posted by PHL10

I don’t feel like the El or subway feel more sketchy than NYC sub/el.

I don't want to beat a dead horse but the El is without a doubt the most disgusting and vile subway line in the country. I've been on the NYC subway hundreds of times and never once seen a car as bad as a car on the El looks routinely with addicts sleeping in the front and back, piss, trash and needles beneath their feet. Bart doesn't come close either.

It all starts with real fare gates that can't be bypassed easily. Keep the litterers/addicts off the train before they litter instead of coming to clean it up. According to Septa the first new fare gates are being installed at 69th street station now with the rest of the rollout starting in 2025. The real time train arrival should be up and running soon, the wayfinding rebrand will be completed in a year or 2 and new El cars in 5 years? They're heading in the right direction but yeah it's not great. I would say that by 2031, when the 76ers arena opens, the El will be a drastically different experience. The Broad Street line is mostly okay and would be very similar to a NYC subway ride if it just had more modern cars with station identification displays.

As for demographics, I agree. The big difference is that in NYC you HAVE to use the subway, cabs/ubers just aren't an option when you have to go so far with so much traffic without having a car. Most places that people go in Philly are no more than a 10-15 minute Uber.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Justin7

Sorry, I love Philly, but it does not compete with BOS/NYC/DC when it comes to mass transit.

There are many reasons for this. Money, Septa's suburban leadership, councilmanic prerogative, etc.

In Philadelphia mass transit is mostly seen as something used by people who can't afford a car, which is not the case in other NEC cities.

I contend the notion that the MBTA is in any way, shape, or form better than SEPTA at anything.

I also contend the notion that SEPTA/PATCO are generally only for people who can't afford a car; no one I know who owns a car says that they'd rather drive into work in the morning than take SEPTA.

SEPTA isn't great right now, and I don't contend any of the points regarding the cleanliness of the MFL. The BSL is generally comparable to New York.

WMATA gets double the funding/rider that SEPTA does, and serves the nation's capital. The stations are mostly new and designed to not only be inviting, but remain clean. SEPTA's stations (especially on the MFL) were built with $5 and some cement. Notice how stations that have been rebuilt (like 5th street) remain clean even after the rebuild is no longer "new", the space has been made more inviting and easier to keep clean. Stations like 11th, 34th, Spring Garden, etc. are as dirty as they are because they were horribly designed and are conducive to litter, grime, and darkness.

In (hopefully) five years, every station will have full height turnstiles and the MFL will have brand new cars. If ever there was a panacea for the MFL's myriad of problems, both operational and cleanliness related, it will be the M-5.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by cardeza

The people that sell and leave are not going to complain about prices or gentrification in 10 years because they aren't coming back and don't likely care all that much. The people who complain are those who either choose to stay and like the status quo in terms of COL or those who could not afford to leave and find rents increasingly unaffordable as a neighborhood improves. Many people leave and are fine with it and never look back- they most definitely aren't concerned about what the new residents do with the area once they take it over.

Oh stop. I'm on all sorts of social media blogs and sites related to urban planning, real estate, architecture, etc. It's a CONSTANT refrain on IG on every single realtor's account that specializes in urban areas. If you don't want to get "pushed out" don't sell granny's house when you get it for free and are living in Smyrna, Georgia.

[PhillyPDX]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

I contend the notion that the MBTA is in any way, shape, or form better than SEPTA at anything.

I also contend the notion that SEPTA/PATCO are generally only for people who can't afford a car; no one I know who owns a car says that they'd rather drive into work in the morning than take SEPTA.

SEPTA isn't great right now, and I don't contend any of the points regarding the cleanliness of the MFL. The BSL is generally comparable to New York.

WMATA gets double the funding/rider that SEPTA does, and serves the nation's capital. The stations are mostly new and designed to not only be inviting, but remain clean. SEPTA's stations (especially on the MFL) were built with $5 and some cement. Notice how stations that have been rebuilt (like 5th street) remain clean even after the rebuild is no longer "new", the space has been made more inviting and easier to keep clean. Stations like 11th, 34th, Spring Garden, etc. are as dirty as they are because they were horribly designed and are conducive to litter, grime, and darkness.

In (hopefully) five years, every station will have full height turnstiles and the MFL will have brand new cars. If ever there was a panacea for the MFL's myriad of problems, both operational and cleanliness related, it will be the M-5.

WMATA also has a terrible safety record, so pick your poison. They got by with a very young system and no maintenance for a while (money used to keep it nice instead), but they are paying the piper now.

[3rd&Brown]

Some good news.

Work seems to be proceeding on One Frankford which had been notably stalled for months. I just passed by and concrete trucks were on site.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by PhillyPDX

WMATA also has a terrible safety record, so pick your poison. They got by with a very young system and no maintenance for a while (money used to keep it nice instead), but they are paying the piper now.

The El is a $shithole. The homeless that use it as their bathroom and garbage can make it a highly unpleasant experience. The kids that treat it like a shooting gallery - a place to settle scores - give the public the perception that you are literally taking a chance when you ride the El. My wife and I are constantly shuffling between Market and 2nd and Center City - at least once a day. We choose to walk.

We haven't really taken the El since Covid. On the off chance that it was unavoidable, it was ALWAYS strewn with garbage, smelled like human waste and had groups of kids yelling and not giving a crap about anyone else on the train. This is not an exaggeration. Every. time. Most of the time, needles and drug use was prevalent. Combine that with the recent violent occurrences (which I understand is overblown to a degree) and it's just not worth the trouble.

You HAVE to improve the situation down there before you expect ridership numbers to justify it. That's what happens when you allow the situation to deteriorate to the level it has. Sorry. Y'all screwed it up and now you have to take a leap of faith to get it back.

It starts with the fact that SEPTA makes ridiculous decisions and spends money like the irresponsible brother of a drunken sailor. Travel Wallet? Are you kidding me? What was it...6 years late and 20 times over budget? I could understand if they were pioneering this type of system. Well, your arch rival to the north had been running a superior system for DECADES before you guys even considered the technological advancement of retiring tokens. The fact that you allow anyone to enter the system without paying is unimaginable. Who made that decision? There's no excuse for this other than total incompetence or worse, corruption.

Until you make an attempt to ensure that paying customers are the ones on the train, you will encourage homelessness, filth and crime on those trains. The other absolute necessity is to patrol and clean these trains. It's a complete joke to have to say this. Don't allow kids to terrorize the system. There has to be a bigger visual presence of enforcement on those trains or no one will feel comfortable again. I'm not sure what to think about the Nat'l guard on NYC transit yet. But I'd rather have my city err in that direction. Sure, it's a startling visual to have military with Uzis standing in the station. But I'd rather have those guys than the punks with 3-d printed Glocks riddling the ridership with bullets. NY made the decision because they can't afford to have NY'ers feel lie they can't use the subway system. Philly has the same need. Will they make the same call?

This is what ya gotta do. Figure it out or settle for the fact that, of the great east coast powerhouse cities, you're a total joke as far as your subway/el system is concerned.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Redddog

We haven't really taken the El since Covid. On the off chance that it was unavoidable, it was ALWAYS strewn with garbage, smelled like human waste and had groups of kids yelling and not giving a crap about anyone else on the train. This is not an exaggeration. Every. time. Most of the time, needles and drug use was prevalent. Combine that with the recent violent occurrences (which I understand is overblown to a degree) and it's just not worth the trouble.

Anecdotally, the MFL is acceptable during rush hours now in terms of cleanliness. It's marginally better than during COVID--but still a far cry from the Toei Subway or even New York. It also definitely feels less unsafe than it did two years ago. The biggest issue at the moment is that it, as a service, is incredibly unreliable as the M-4 cars decay at the seams.

Outside of rush is when it continues to be incredibly dirty.

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by Redddog

The El is a $shithole. The homeless that use it as their bathroom and garbage can make it a highly unpleasant experience. The kids that treat it like a shooting gallery - a place to settle scores - give the public the perception that you are literally taking a chance when you ride the El. My wife and I are constantly shuffling between Market and 2nd and Center City - at least once a day. We choose to walk.

We haven't really taken the El since Covid. On the off chance that it was unavoidable, it was ALWAYS strewn with garbage, smelled like human waste and had groups of kids yelling and not giving a crap about anyone else on the train. This is not an exaggeration. Every. time. Most of the time, needles and drug use was prevalent. Combine that with the recent violent occurrences (which I understand is overblown to a degree) and it's just not worth the trouble.

You HAVE to improve the situation down there before you expect ridership numbers to justify it. That's what happens when you allow the situation to deteriorate to the level it has. Sorry. Y'all screwed it up and now you have to take a leap of faith to get it back.

It starts with the fact that SEPTA makes ridiculous decisions and spends money like the irresponsible brother of a drunken sailor. Travel Wallet? Are you kidding me? What was it...6 years late and 20 times over budget? I could understand if they were pioneering this type of system. Well, your arch rival to the north had been running a superior system for DECADES before you guys even considered the technological advancement of retiring tokens. The fact that you allow anyone to enter the system without paying is unimaginable. Who made that decision? There's no excuse for this other than total incompetence or worse, corruption.

Until you make an attempt to ensure that paying customers are the ones on the train, you will encourage homelessness, filth and crime on those trains. The other absolute necessity is to patrol and clean these trains. It's a complete joke to have to say this. Don't allow kids to terrorize the system. There has to be a bigger visual presence of enforcement on those trains or no one will feel comfortable again. I'm not sure what to think about the Nat'l guard on NYC transit yet. But I'd rather have my city err in that direction. Sure, it's a startling visual to have military with Uzis standing in the station. But I'd rather have those guys than the punks with 3-d printed Glocks riddling the ridership with bullets. NY made the decision because they can't afford to have NY'ers feel lie they can't use the subway system. Philly has the same need. Will they make the same call?

This is what ya gotta do. Figure it out or settle for the fact that, of the great east coast powerhouse cities, you're a total joke as far as your subway/el system is concerned.

As someone that is in both NYC and DC monthly and lives in Philly, I agree with all of this. I could easily afford a car but I don’t have one because the city is so walkable. I refuse the ride the El or the BSL. The last three or four times I’ve tried I’ve felt so unsafe and on edge the entire time. I’ve only felt that way once in NYC and never in DC. The only rail transit I’ve felt comfortable on here other than regional rail is the trolley from 19th to 30th to catch the train and to get to Penn for doctors appointments. It’s a disgrace. I’m so hopeful that Philly will figure this out in the next 10 years. I’m very happy to see objective evidence that SEPTA and the city are trying, but I’m not riding it unless it feels safe.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

As someone that is in both NYC and DC monthly and lives in Philly, I agree with all of this. I could easily afford a car but I don’t have one because the city is so walkable. I refuse the ride the El or the BSL. The last three or four times I’ve tried I’ve felt so unsafe and on edge the entire time. I’ve only felt that way once in NYC and never in DC. The only rail transit I’ve felt comfortable on here other than regional rail is the trolley from 19th to 30th to catch the train and to get to Penn for doctors appointments. It’s a disgrace. I’m so hopeful that Philly will figure this out in the next 10 years. I’m very happy to see objective evidence that SEPTA and the city are trying, but I’m not riding it unless it feels safe.

Yep. Lived in DC for years before a 12 year run in NYC. Ended up here so I have extensive experience with all those transit systems as well.

It's a shame.

[ok-ez]

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadel...ladelphia.html

Temple wants North Philadelphia to model University City as innovation hub

Could North Broad Street be the city's next innovation corridor? Temple University is betting on it with iNest, a new incubator space the school hopes can ignite innovation in North Philadelphia.

The project spans 8,000 square feet of lab, co-working, office and event space inside Temple's former dental school building at 3223 N. Broad St. The incubator is meant to be a catalyst for innovative research, commercializing ideas and producing startups, much like University of Pennsylvania's Center for Innovation.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by ok-ez

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadel...ladelphia.html

That sounds great. I think, though, you might have to address the outrageous violence that happens in Temple and vicinity before that happens.

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

I don't want to beat a dead horse but the El is without a doubt the most disgusting and vile subway line in the country. I've been on the NYC subway hundreds of times and never once seen a car as bad as a car on the El looks routinely with addicts sleeping in the front and back, piss, trash and needles beneath their feet. Bart doesn't come close either.

It all starts with real fare gates that can't be bypassed easily. Keep the litterers/addicts off the train before they litter instead of coming to clean it up. According to Septa the first new fare gates are being installed at 69th street station now with the rest of the rollout starting in 2025. The real time train arrival should be up and running soon, the wayfinding rebrand will be completed in a year or 2 and new El cars in 5 years? They're heading in the right direction but yeah it's not great. I would say that by 2031, when the 76ers arena opens, the El will be a drastically different experience. The Broad Street line is mostly okay and would be very similar to a NYC subway ride if it just had more modern cars with station identification displays.

As for demographics, I agree. The big difference is that in NYC you HAVE to use the subway, cabs/ubers just aren't an option when you have to go so far with so much traffic without having a car. Most places that people go in Philly are no more than a 10-15 minute Uber.

Are the fare gates funded past the initial pilot project?

[Philly Fan]

Some construction progress photos from this interesting new building on the Penn campus:

In Photos: A look inside the new Vagelos Laboratory for Energy Science and Technology

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by Redddog

That sounds great. I think, though, you might have to address the outrageous violence that happens in Temple and vicinity before that happens.

Ah yes, blame the University's for the crime in the city, and because of the crime, there should be no attempt to grow commercial businesses. Very smart logic /s

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

Ah yes, blame the University's for the crime in the city, and because of the crime, there should be no attempt to grow commercial businesses. Very smart logic /s

I don't think they're blaming the universities for crime, I think they're saying it's a hard sell to get a company to move to north Broad considering the war zone just off Temple's campus. I definitely hope they're successful. Improving the areas that the BSL runs through is a surefire way to improve the feel of the line.

[Justin7]

Ban turf fields in Philadelphia parks | Editorial

The risks associated with the artificial fields — which contain chemicals linked to cancer, asthma, and other health issues — are not worth the benefits.

by The Editorial Board
Published Mar. 21, 2024, 5:30 a.m. ET

[...]

The first step should be to remove the turf at the recreation center in South Philadelphia where the city was “bamboozled.” The city should also cancel plans to install turf fields in Franklin Delano Roosevelt Park or any other city facilities.

[...]

https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/edi...-20240321.html

Inky gets one right.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by Redddog

That sounds great. I think, though, you might have to address the outrageous violence that happens in Temple and vicinity before that happens.

Wasn’t too many years back that University City / West Philly had similar struggles. Temples area is a couple decades behind UC in terms of development cycle. Startups might end up getting attracted to more affordable rent with access to university resources 🤷🏼♂️

[jaysb]

Originally Posted by Justin7

https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/edi...-20240321.html

Inky gets one right.

Amen! My kids practice at the South Philly Super Site and it's disgusting, those chopped up tire bits get in everything. Time to write Squilla.

[justremember]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

I think it's about Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. It sounds like a nice to have and a distraction if your neighborhood still isn't safe and your local school is failing. And I'd argue they're right.

I mostly agree, but I also don’t think the two sides are unrelated, and I think the failure to articulate comprehensive vision is to the detriment of struggling neighborhoods. Ultimately, anti-urban policies exacerbate the problems theses neighborhoods face.

Also, Black political power isn’t necessarily concentrated in the most dangerous or depressed neighborhoods. I can’t quantify it or perfectly articulate it, but it feels like we’ve been duped into thinking the best thing we can do for the city is suburbanizing everything and making it as easy as possible to drive and park everywhere. And when you embed “the city is bad, escape or suburbanize everything” in our political discourse, you guarantee Black people are going to flee as soon as the can. At least that’s what I feel like I observed growing in a family that fled and in one of the NW mega-churches. There’s a whole culture and discourse that White urbanist just don’t get or seem to want to understand and appeal to, even though though theres actually a great opportunity for headway there.