The Canadian Electric Vehicle thread

[urbandreamer]

Meanwhile, Volvo has stopped supporting Polestar.

Real world range of 350km on the EX30? (200km or less in cold weather?)

Harry's Garage has an interesting conversation about the EV market in UK:
https://youtu.be/nZysvgm2_Aw?si=p9MwFSyxibSd5szH

[travis3000]

^ He basically says in that video that Tesla is the exception. Their cars are the most efficient by a long shot, and have the best range, lowest weights, and lowest battery degradation of EVs.

So again, another article/video that basically exempts the car company making 75% of all EVs sold.

[urbandreamer]

Minus CyberTruck ha.

Someone bought a Vinfast in my neighborhood. If Vinfast had made PHEV at affordable prices or even just cheap ICE vehicles, they'd be more successful imo. Although apparently Americans are starting to take advantage of their cheap lease deals.

I also noticed two Teslas in my building, which operate as Ubers. They park them on the street so I presume the family that runs them 24/7 Ubering Supercharge them. I basically assume a white Model 3 is an Uber. They've become the Camry of EVs.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

.....I also noticed two Teslas in my building, which operate as Ubers. They park them on the street so I presume the family that runs them 24/7 Ubering Supercharge them. I basically assume a white Model 3 is an Uber. They've become the Camry of EVs.

Yeah Model 3 and Model Y are going to have all the cachet the Lincoln Town Car developed circa 2001.

[urbandreamer]

I just priced a blue 2024 Tesla Model 3 LR, no Auto Pilot or self driving for $68600. Then I discovered you can get a loaded 2024 Honda Accord hybrid for $44000. Assuming you keep it for 10 years which car is the better deal? (Although at 195 inches long, the Accord is 10 inches longer than Model 3. A loaded Civic sedan is 183 inches long, $36k. Hmm. $30,000 buys a lot of gas eh.) Also consider the 50% of us who don't have access to home charging.

Yes, I know you'll argue the Model 3 is a luxury vehicle. It's not, since so many are used as taxis/ubers. It's really a Camry/Accord/Civic/Corolla/Taurus/Malibu competitor, aka a mainstream sedan. It's similar to buying an iPhone 15 vs a Samsung Galaxy a55 or Galaxy 23FE. Similar functionality but inflationary value. Do the same people buying Model 3 bitch about Galen Weston?

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Rich people I know pay cash for vehicles. Regardless you are paying for the depreciation for the period you own it. With a lease it's estimated depreciation with the risk on the dealer's side (of course you pay for that). They don't seem to anticipate them being worthless in 3 years.

Returning to this idea, I was surprised to hear the lease rates for some luxury vehicles in this clip. Land Rover about 97% and even Mercedes well into the 80% range.

• Video Link

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

....Also consider the 50% of us who don't have access to home charging....

Obviously, at this point in time, it takes longer to charge at a public high-speed facility than it does to fill up with gas. That being said, why is a lack of home charging such an issue when 99.999999% of ICE drivers don't have home access to gasoline?

[Wigs]

You mean to tell me you guys don't have a 1000L tank of gasoline at home?

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Returning to this idea, I was surprised to hear the lease rates for some luxury vehicles in this clip. Land Rover about 97% and even Mercedes well into the 80% range.

Those are US numbers but yeah I think you're right. I was just tire kicking a luxury vehicle and was told lots of rich business owners often lease to get better deductions for their LLCs. Plus sales guy said less and less pay cash these days as all the incentives are with finance rates in order to not lower the sales prices.

[urbandreamer]

^I was shocked when I bought my $6850 all in used car with cash, the salesperson said many people finance this amount wtf.

Anyway, given the returns on the stock market, it doesn't make sense to pay cash for a luxury vehicle.

I think what I mean by not having access to a home charger is the battery degradation that happens always using a fast charger vs the time needed - 1 hour? - on a normal DC charger, assuming it's available/working. The closest Supercharger to me is at Sherway Gardens - very bad reviews unless you're there at 3am. Who has time for that? I checked the various Flo etc chargers around High Park area and they all say "slow" "out of service" "unavailable." Vs Keele & Bloor or Dundas & Jane for gas is quick and reliable.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

Obviously, at this point in time, it takes longer to charge at a public high-speed facility than it does to fill up with gas. That being said, why is a lack of home charging such an issue when 99.999999% of ICE drivers don't have home access to gasoline?

You answered your own question.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

I just priced a blue 2024 Tesla Model 3 LR, no Auto Pilot or self driving for $68600. Then I discovered you can get a loaded 2024 Honda Accord hybrid for $44000. Assuming you keep it for 10 years which car is the better deal? (Although at 195 inches long, the Accord is 10 inches longer than Model 3. A loaded Civic sedan is 183 inches long, $36k. Hmm. $30,000 buys a lot of gas eh.) Also consider the 50% of us who don't have access to home charging.

Yes, I know you'll argue the Model 3 is a luxury vehicle. It's not, since so many are used as taxis/ubers. It's really a Camry/Accord/Civic/Corolla/Taurus/Malibu competitor, aka a mainstream sedan. It's similar to buying an iPhone 15 vs a Samsung Galaxy a55 or Galaxy 23FE. Similar functionality but inflationary value. Do the same people buying Model 3 bitch about Galen Weston?

Aside from the fact that the Model LR is an AWD vehicle and the Accord isn't, let's look at the price differences.

Model 3 LR AWD - $66k before federal rebate.
Accord - $43 463

Let's deduct the federal rebate and add sales taxes.

Model 3 LR - $69 580
Accord - $49 113

The difference is $20 467.

Let's use an amortization period of 10 years and a 7% interest rate to get a difference of $237/mo. So the question is do you think having an AWD car with more convenience and safety features and a lower cost of fuel and maintenance is worth $237/mo.

But let's look at the fuelling cost difference for 15 000km/yr (average mileage in Canada). Let's use 7L/100km and $1.35/L for the Accord and let's use 16 kWh/100 km and 11¢/kWh (midway between off-peak and midpeak in most cities in Ontario). The Accord has a fuel cost of $118/mo. The Model 3 LR AWD has a fuel cost of $22/mo. So that's a difference of $96/mo for 15 000 km of driving per year.

So the actually monthly cost difference is about $141. So is $141/mo worth the all wheel drive, the fully software defined vehicle and the much better safety and convenience features (full control from your phone)? Some will say yes. Some will prefer the flexibility of a gas vehicle. But I'm going to bet when looking at such a small net monthly difference, a lot of people will pick the Tesla.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by theman23

You answered your own question.

I knew I shouldn't have changed "slightly longer" to "longer". However, to get a proper answer one would have to also factor in the travel time to the nearest gas station versus charging point, what you can do while charging versus filling up, the difference in time spent on maintenance in a given year, and so on.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

So the actually monthly cost difference is about $141. So is $141/mo worth the all wheel drive, the fully software defined vehicle and the much better safety and convenience features (full control from your phone)? Some will say yes. Some will prefer the flexibility of a gas vehicle. But I'm going to bet when looking at such a small net monthly difference, a lot of people will pick the Tesla.

You are also assuming zero maintenance on both vehicles. The Accord will need more I'm sure, even if it's just oil and other fluid changes.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

I knew I shouldn't have changed "slightly longer" to "longer". However, to get a proper answer one would have to also factor in the travel time to the nearest gas station versus charging point, what you can do while charging versus filling up, the difference in time spent on maintenance in a given year, and so on.

I've never met an EV owner who cared about charging time because they implicitly understand concurrent activity. Virtually every time I come across complaints about time to charge it's for those who don't own EVs.

I live in a condo. If I bought an EV, I'd simply spend the half hour doing groceries or having a coffee at Starbucks. And now that grocery chains are getting into charging it's going to be super easy. Spend $10 on fast charging and get enough miles for the week while spending 20-30 mins doing groceries. Or install maxed out (much) cheaper LVL 2 chargers at gyms and in the hour that it takes to change, work out and shower, that's 19 kWh in the tank. Twice a week of that would cover most commuters. Any place you can or so spend 20-30 minutes per week is enough time to solve the fueling problem. I think once the grocery store, gym and mall chargers become more common, these complaints will disappear.

[urbandreamer]

$141 buys a lot of beer, cigarettes and double doubles!

In today's inflationary environment, I'd buy a base Honda Civic sedan (EX, $32k) if I had 2 kids and a wife. I gotta have my weekly two four of Coors Light or me mates will think I'm Mormon.

Last weekend, I was thinking Provincial Parks should have charging stations.

Truenorth, suddenly your EV lifestyle is making you spend, not save money. Gyms, Starbucks etc are expensive compared to instant coffee and daily neighborhood walks.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

You are also assuming zero maintenance on both vehicles. The Accord will need more I'm sure, even if it's just oil and other fluid changes.

I'm being generous with the Accord. And I wanted to avoid getting derailed on maintenance cost discussions. But yes, for the average person (who don't do oil changes in the parking lot themselves), the maintenance would be more.

And of course, if the comparison was against a standard range RWD Model 3, the Accord starts looking rather expensive.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I've never met an EV owner who cared about charging time because they implicitly understand concurrent activity. Virtually every time I come across complaints about time to charge it's for those who don't own EVs.

Same thing with range really. The average person putting 15K or even 20K kms isn't doing this driving 20 days a year for 1000kms each.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

$141 buys a lot of beer, cigarettes and double doubles!

In today's inflationary environment, I'd buy a base Honda Civic sedan if I had 2 kids and a wife. I gotta have my two four of Coors Light or me mates will think I'm Mormon.

If you had kids, and a wife you'd also be thinking about their safety, before you think of $141/mo. That makes the Tesla more attractive.

I'm not even a Tesla fan. I don't want to defend them. But your logic here is terrible and not at all how a person cross-shopping these cars would actually think. That's why I'm calling it out.

In reality, very few people are cross-shopping an Accord and a Model 3. But if they are genuinely doing that, they are far more likely to be biased towards the Tesla than the Model 3. Most often the Model 3 is cross-shopped against entry level luxury sedans. The BMW 3, Audi A4, Mercedes C Class, Lexus IS, etc. And it blows them out of the water on long term cost. Which is why those companies keep hemorrhaging sales to Tesla.

[theman23]

To each their own. I don't like filling my car with gasoline either, but its quick and they're everywhere. Current charging infrastructure doesn't match that. Hopefully it will in the future.

Near where I live in the lower mainland, which is likely better than most of the country, only one of the four grocery stores that I go to on a regular basis have chargers in the parking lot. The one that does has a level 2 charger. The others have chargers within a 15 minute walk, but that would mean parking my car in an adjacent plaza and again I would be dealing with a level 2 charger. Not very useful unless I'm planning on spending an entire day grocery shopping or going to the grocery every day. If I want a level 3 public charger, I'd have to drive 15 km out of the way and shop at grocery store that I don't particularly like.

You're right about the benefits re: service intervals.