Sports in Canadian culture

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by Welkin

When the World Cup comes to North America, let it be played in sold out, packed 80,000 seat stadiums down in the states. That will make it close enough for us to attend, without having to spend billions hosting the party.

Well said sir

[mistercorporate]

Soccer crazy countries are already saturated with coverage and accessibility. FIFA is focused on cultivating new markets, hence the strong push into North America and Australia.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Welkin

I am sorry, but I just can't see Canada ever getting a Men's World Cup. Canada is the least "soccer" nation of any major country in the world. Every other major country in the world has a domestic soccer league (much less 3 or 4 leagues) and teams from ever major city. Soccer is not part of Canada's fabric. 15 of Canada's 20 biggest cities don't even have soccer teams. Almost all have hockey teams, but not soccer teams. True we are getting the Canadian Soccer League but I give that two years before the money dries up and teams draw less than 2,000 a game. London has 14 professional teams, Canada has 5. The truth is we don't deserve soccer's greatest event. We have done nothing to earn the right to take this tournament from some other country where soccer is a true passion and not just a curious event. When the World Cup comes to North America, let it be played in sold out, packed 80,000 seat stadiums down in the states. That will make it close enough for us to attend, without having to spend billions hosting the party.

One word answer that renders false everything you have said...QATAR

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Soccer crazy countries are already saturated with coverage and accessibility. FIFA is focused on cultivating new markets, hence the strong push into North America and Australia.

Canada also offers FIFA the opportunity to kinda have a WC in the US without it actually being in the US.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Acajack

So yeah, if Canada hosts the WC, my bet is on the final at the Big O, and Toronto will host a bunch of elimination round games and a semi-final at an expanded 40,000 seat BMO Field.

Totally agree, there is no law stating that T.O. could or should get the final. The WWC got along just fine without Toronto, not saying that about the men's WC, but I see no compelling reason to gift the final to Toronto.

There's no reason to build a new huge stadium in Toronto aside from the NFL and no government will have truck with that. Political suicide, at least on the federal front and provincially I can't see the people of Ottawa or Hamilton being too keen on the idea. Maybe by that time they might see a need for a new 40k stadium expandable to 80k and retracted back to 40k after the WC.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The NFL in Toronto is not my dream but as we all know it is the dream of many.

Well until some sucker comes along willing to lay down 2 billion and growing (by the time the idea regains some traction) and is able to wait 20 years for a return on their investment, I'll reserve judgment.

The guys making the money in the NFL are all the old families who got in on the ground floor. The NKOTB aren't doing nearly as well as the former. They're the ones who had to lay out all the money and wait for a ROI.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by elly63

Totally agree, there is no law stating that T.O. could or should get the final. The WWC got along just fine without Toronto, not saying that about the men's WC, but I see no compelling reason to gift the final to Toronto.

Toronto is the biggest city in Canada and is the business capital, has by far the biggest concentration of soccer fans and is the most diverse. It's also in Southern Ontario which has 12 million people and is relatively close to some key US cities.

The World Cup doesn't happen in Canada without Toronto being at the centre of it.

[Nicko999]

Originally Posted by Berklon

Toronto is the biggest city in Canada and is the business capital, has by far the biggest concentration of soccer fans and is the most diverse. It's also in Southern Ontario which has 12 million people and is relatively close to some key US cities.

The World Cup doesn't happen in Canada without Toronto being at the centre of it.

In any scenario, Toronto will at least get a semi final. In the 2014 WC, the final was played in Rio de Janeiro, the second largest city in Brazil. Because they had a smaller stadium (63k capacity), Sao Paulo, a city almost twice as big as Toronto, only got a semi final.

FIFA won't care about the population that much when it comes to the final because that specific game can be filled with tourists only even if there are 0 local people at the game.

The last World Cup final that wasn't played in the biggest stadium was in 1982 in Spain. Final was played at Barnabeu in Madrid with a capacity of 90,800 instead of Camp Nou in Barcelona with a capacity of 97,679 (to make up for this, they gave the 2 semi finals to Barcelona).

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by elly63

Well until some sucker comes along willing to lay down 2 billion and growing (by the time the idea regains some traction) and is able to wait 20 years for a return on their investment, I'll reserve judgment.

The guys making the money in the NFL are all the old families who got in on the ground floor. The NKOTB aren't doing nearly as well as the former. They're the ones who had to lay out all the money and wait for a ROI.

It's already more than $2 billion... The Cowboys (yes, it's the extreme end) are now apparently worth $4 Billion according to Forbes, and their stadium is another ~$1.5 Billion. And that's $US, so ~$7.25 Billion CAD (according to today's exchange rate). The poor boy at the table (Bills) are worth $1.4 Billion USD ($1.85 Billion CAD). Add in a stadium (which generally cost more to build in Canada than the US) that is NFL calibre, and you are looking at well in excess of $3 billion CAD startup costs (and as others have said... public funds to support said stadium would be a fairly toxic proposal for anyone involved).

Canada basically goes all in on Hockey, remember the rights deal with Rogers? It's a massive game changer to the value of hockey, it's a new era, etc... But it's still peanuts compared to American media deals for their leagues/teams (multiple leagues with HUGE deals).

Keeping hockey in mind, another "food for thought" number... The Leafs are worth $1.3 Billion US... i.e. less than the bottom team of the NFL.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Berklon

Toronto is the biggest city in Canada and is the business capital, has by far the biggest concentration of soccer fans and is the most diverse. It's also in Southern Ontario which has 12 million people and is relatively close to some key US cities.

The World Cup doesn't happen in Canada without Toronto being at the centre of it.

Do you honestly think anyone internationally would give a rat's ass about that. We have to measure diversity? Montreal is not diverse? Vancouver? They're not "relatively close" to US cities?

Of course Toronto will be a major part of it, but the top? Not necessarily and frankly not necessary.

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think the big elephant in the room regarding a permanent megastadium in Toronto (for the WC or - until recently - the Olympics) really is the NFL.

Hear me out, folks...

What's ironic is that if look at things more closely, it could be at least in part Toronto's tepid support for Canadian-only sports that might cost it the chance to host the WC final if Canada ever hosted the event.

Let's put two and two and two and two together.
- A new stadium for the WC would need a lot of public money.
- That public money is easier to obtain if there is also a legacy facility left over after the event.
- But if the legacy facility's use is destined for something imported from another country like the NFL, and politically loaded for Canadian politicians, then that makes the funding harder to come by.
- It would likely be easier to get public money for a new stadium in Toronto if the Argos, or the Canadian men's national soccer team, or even the Vanier Cup, had some use for that size of stadium every once in a while.
- But alas, they dont. Apparently the only possible future long-term use for a 70-80,000 seat stadium in Canada's largest city of 6 million people is a team that doesn't even exist yet and that would play in the pro football league from the country next door.

So yeah, if Canada hosts the WC, my bet is on the final at the Big O, and Toronto will host a bunch of elimination round games and a semi-final at an expanded 40,000 seat BMO Field.

I couldn't agree with your opinion more, Irony of Ironies is Toronto's aspiration of shedding any association with Canadian Pro Sports leagues what so ever, is also going to limit its attraction from American football in the eyes of the NFL. In addition, if indeed Canada were ever to be chosen in the coming couple decades to host the WC, Toronto would have a lot of trouble getting federal funding for a stadium large enough to host a Final in WC or Semi Final for that matter, considering stadiums in Western Canada have been reno-ed or newly constructed without federal funding.

WC typical have about a dozen cities in host nation with +40,000 seat stadiums, Western Canada have or/will have an easy 5 stadiums that size or expandable to it. With some modifications and upgrading, Ontario has Rogers Centre, Quebec has the Big Owe. This leaves another 5 stadiums that will need drastic renos or new stadiums.. I could imagine BMO expanded to just barely make the 40,000 cut and possibly TH Field, TD place, Saputo and PEPS stadium possibly expanded to 40,000.. or leaving another stadium needing to be built (Halifax?)

[Horus]

Originally Posted by elly63

One word answer that renders false everything you have said...QATAR

Money talks

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

I couldn't agree with your opinion more, Irony of Ironies is Toronto's aspiration of shedding any association with Canadian Pro Sports leagues what so ever, is also going to limit its attraction from American football in the eyes of the NFL. In addition, if indeed Canada were ever to be chosen in the coming couple decades to host the WC, Toronto would have a lot of trouble getting federal funding for a stadium large enough to host a Final in WC or Semi Final for that matter, considering stadiums in Western Canada have been reno-ed or newly constructed without federal funding.

WC typical have about a dozen cities in host nation with +40,000 seat stadiums, Western Canada have or/will have an easy 5 stadiums that size or expandable to it. With some modifications and upgrading, Ontario has Rogers Centre, Quebec has the Big Owe. This leaves another 5 stadiums that will need drastic renos or new stadiums.. I could imagine BMO expanded to just barely make the 40,000 cut and possibly TH Field, TD place, Saputo and PEPS stadium possibly expanded to 40,000.. or leaving another stadium needing to be built (Halifax?)

We have the Stadiums to Host a word cup today. It's a minimum of 8. Calgary will have a new stadium by then If we used every other CFL stadium (-molson swappped with Big O) That's 9 host cities. If halifax can get it done that's 10 but our country has the potential for 12 with a major expansion and renovation of moncton stadium and another built in quebec.

However We would do it just fine and responsibly with 9 host cities 300k in stadium upgrades and 400K in the big O. If they want additional stadiums then Saputo and RC may come into play. Vancouver and edmonton may also have a SSS built by that time that could be used. I think were in good shape

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

We have the Stadiums to Host a word cup today. It's a minimum of 8. Calgary will have a new stadium by then If we used every other CFL stadium (-molson swappped with Big O) That's 9 host cities. If halifax can get it done that's 10 but our country has the potential for 12 with a major expansion and renovation of moncton stadium and another built in quebec.

However We would do it just fine and responsibly with 9 host cities 300k in stadium upgrades and 400K in the big O.

You meant M, not K, right?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

I couldn't agree with your opinion more, Irony of Ironies is Toronto's aspiration of shedding any association with Canadian Pro Sports leagues what so ever, is also going to limit its attraction from American football in the eyes of the NFL. .

It's kind of like a kid who gets crappy marks in high school, but who still wants to get admitted into med school, because that's where the "big show" is and where he will truly apply himself.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

That's only because the team in question doesn't own the 65,000 seater (not every team has deep pockets), they'll still use that stadium for big games. The Seattle Sounders example alone should make it clear this will happen eventually. MLS already has better attendance than some European soccer leagues with century-old traditions. Anyway, keep churping, we all know the writing's on the wall...

I don't think the Seattle situation (or that of any average American city) is comparable to Toronto or Canadian cities when it comes to spectator sports culture.

Just looking at fan support in Seattle:

Seahawks: 70,000 a game
Huskies college football: 60,000
Sounders: 43,000
Mariners: almost 30,000
Huskies college basketball: 8,000
Thunderbirds junior hockey: 8,000
Seattle University basketball: 5,000

I am probably missing some as well...

[Nathan]

Something to also think about... If the MLS grows to be as strong/rich as the other American professional leagues, Canadian teams could be pushed to the side. Toronto is middle of the pack/bottom half in strength/value in MLB and NBA, and they generally have to use all of Canada as their "home market" to get them there. 3 teams doing this in the MLS could be troublesome, not to mention that interest in the MLS is still basically a bubble in each Canadian city that has a team (viewership on TV is right around 100k-150k or less most of the time).

And even then, I doubt the MLS will ever rise to the level of some of its European counterparts. (Attendance in stadia matters very little in the upper tiers of sport. It's more about how rich the owners are and how much sponsors/media pays to be associated with a league and its teams). This is problematic for the Canadian teams in that we have been conditioned to want "the best" even if we don't have it at home; afterall, it's quite easy to catch an EPL match on TV, whose matches actually do get higher viewership than the MLS.

It could be different if habits/attitudes change of course.

[mistercorporate]

Toronto is Canada's unrivalled metropolis, the situation is not comparable to Brazil where one is the well known cultural capital while the other is a lesser known and slightly larger business capital.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

Irony of Ironies is Toronto's aspiration of shedding any association with Canadian Pro Sports leagues what so ever, is also going to limit its attraction from American football in the eyes of the NFL.

Far be it for me to defend Toronto but if you think about it, in what cities are Toronto's major rivalries. And to me a rivalry is when the other city cares as well, so I don't think we can say the NY Yankees because I doubt they are flocking to see the Jays at Yankee stadium on a yearly basis aside from maybe this year.

Toronto's biggest acknowledged rivals are the Habs, Sens, Ti-Cats, and Impact and Caps. Do they have baseball or basketball rivalries where the other team cares?

So as much as Toronto likes to pretend it is a big time international playa, the best rivalries are homegrown. Very strange.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Toronto is Canada's unrivalled metropolis, the situation is not comparable to Brazil where one is the well known cultural capital while the other is a lesser known and slightly larger business capital.

I would be very interested if the question was posed internationally, what Canadian city would you like to visit. Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver? Personally I don't think T.O has the cachet the other two do. To me, Toronto is the Chicago to Montreal's Paris and Vancouver's LA. I originally had compared Montreal with New York but neither Toronto, Montreal or any other city in the world is comparable to New York (maybe London)