Perimeter Highway | Winnipeg

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Carboy15

Talking about cross-country interchange at CCW, I also stormed some ideas for Fermor and Perimeter.

https://imgur.com/a/Ro2oLbX

In the South Perimeter study plans from 2019, it was shown that the Fermor Interchange would be the same cloverleaf, but with bigger rings. I mean, the rings can be as big as you want, but it's the weaving that's the issue. May not be a problem now, but in 20 years I could see that being an issue. These designs may not be 100% perfect,l but could fix the weaving issue on the busiest ramps.

As for this, it looks good. However, if it were up to me, I’d do Deacon Corners Bypass first then this. I have a feeling that doing this one first will restrict future options around Deacon’s Corners.

Edit: Actually, they may be best considered together.

[bomberjet]

Originally Posted by drew

I can't speak for roadways - but for building construction you cannot build foundations on frozen subgrade - or rather you can - but you won't be happy you did within the following year or so. Properly compacting granular subbase in the winter is next to impossible as well.

Ya. For this particular project, there is zero room for doing road grading in winter.

I have a project ongoing in Alberta. The only grading type work we're doing is embankment preloading over muskeg areas. There are some structural elements for retaining walls that are being done under tarps and glycol heating mats to keep the ground in an unfrozen state.

Probably 10 years ago, there was a railway bridge that burned down near Morris. We ended up doing the bridge approaches in winter without any heating. It was a nightmare. They had to remove frozen material before placing anything new. A lot of waste. The gravel was coming from Stonewall to boot.

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by Wpgstvsouth94

I’ve driven by the St. Mary’s interchange multiple times throughout the winter and have noticed zero construction going on. Does anyone know what’s going on? There’s lots to do that can be done in the winter like lighting, bridge, deck work, etc..

Like others have said, they're waiting for spring to finish grading and paving.

Any residential street project I've seen will get the roadway completed before light installs. The locations of the lights have to be at the proper grade before install, and they would be in the way for roadwork machinery if installed first. I assume the same holds true for highway construction.

As for the bridge, the spans are complete, no idea what's left to do on the structure itself but I'm betting it's pretty close as it is.

They haven't announced any delays in the opening, and especially with the winter we've had, spring construction will probably start early.

[bodaggin]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I’d do Deacon Corners Bypass first then this.

Exactly. Don't start getting fancy until you delete all the lights and have free flowing traffic first.

You make 100% and 200%+ gains going from a stoplight to a diamond/clover. For $50-150m.

You barely make 40% gains going from a clover to a partial stack, for many hundreds of millions of dollars. Much, much less bang for buck.

[Carboy15]

Originally Posted by bodaggin

Exactly. Don't start getting fancy until you delete all the lights and have free flowing traffic first.

You make 100% and 200%+ gains going from a stoplight to a diamond/clover. For $50-150m.

You barely make 40% gains going from a clover to a partial stack, for many hundreds of millions of dollars. Much, much less bang for buck.

Probably wouldn't happen for many years, but it would be great to put that in the design consideration for years to come. The cloverleaf may not be a big issue now, but in 50 years it may not hold up.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Carboy15

Probably wouldn't happen for many years, but it would be great to put that in the design consideration for years to come. The cloverleaf may not be a big issue now, but in 50 years it may not hold up.

IMO, someone needs to tell MTI to consider that interchange in conjunction with Deacon’s Corners.

[bodaggin]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

IMO, someone needs to tell MTI to consider that interchange in conjunction with Deacon’s Corners.

Can you mock a design where Deacon's has any effect or tie-in to the Perimeter Interchange?

Keeping in mind I could easily find 20-30 locations WITHIN Winnipeg that need overpasses.

And roughly the same 20-30 OUTSIDE of Winnipeg that desperately need overpassing.

....Long before that Perimeter interchange needs touching...

[bodaggin]

Here's 29 overpasses that need to happen in Winnipeg before touching Perimeter @ Fermor. And I haven't even touched Chief Peguis Expansion, or anything downtown.




Here's 25 outside of Perimeter. This doesn't even include full TCH grade separation or much of Selkirk (which I'm not super familiar with).

But all 54+ of these in and outside of Winnipeg are a higher priority than rebuilding Fermor/Perimeter IMO.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by bodaggin

Can you mock a design where Deacon's has any effect or tie-in to the Perimeter Interchange?

Keeping in mind I could easily find 20-30 locations WITHIN Winnipeg that need overpasses.

And roughly the same 20-30 OUTSIDE of Winnipeg that desperately need overpassing.

....Long before that Perimeter interchange needs touching...

My main concern is the possible effect that any new alignment of TCH around Deacon’s may have on the floodway crossing and that interchange. In cases like this, details (down to the turning radius of the flyover ramps from TCH to Perimeter Highway, drainage ditch slope, etc.) really matter.

Building anything in Red River Valley really isn’t for the lolz.

[Carboy15]

On Winnipeg's streets, I wouldn't really want many interchanges as Winnipeg would like to turn towards public transit. The whole point of the Perimeter is to divert traffic from the city roads.

[bodaggin]

Originally Posted by Carboy15

On Winnipeg's streets, I wouldn't really want many interchanges as Winnipeg would like to turn towards public transit. The whole point of the Perimeter is to divert traffic from the city roads.

The inner ring road is supposed to divert traffic from streets. But it can't do that effectively until it's free-flowing. Without free flowing, it can't unload the streets intersecting it. It needs grade separating.

Whitemud in Edmonton. Circle Drive in Saskatoon. Ring Road in Regina: All grade separated.

Winnipeg's Lag, Bishop, Kenaston, Century, Chief inner ring needs the same. Desperately.

[Wpgstvsouth94]

Originally Posted by bodaggin

The inner ring road is supposed to divert traffic from streets. But it can't do that effectively until it's free-flowing. Without free flowing, it can't unload the streets intersecting it. It needs grade separating.

Whitemud in Edmonton. Circle Drive in Saskatoon. Ring Road in Regina: All grade separated.

Winnipeg's Lag, Bishop, Kenaston, Century, Chief inner ring needs the same. Desperately.

100%! This city looks like a shithole. The quality of life and getting around on a fully grade separated bishop and lag would be life changing. It would actually feel like you are in a thriving city and not a decaying wasteland.. the same goes for the other roads you mentioned.

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by Wpgstvsouth94

100%! This city looks like a shithole. The quality of life and getting around on a fully grade separated bishop and lag would be life changing. It would actually feel like you are in a thriving city and not a decaying wasteland.. the same goes for the other roads you mentioned.

When I think of thriving cities, a 4+ lane expressway or freeway is not the first thing that comes to mind. More like if I'm trying to imagine dull grey dystopia.

Build and grade separate the inner ring road and QOL in the city will be just about the same. More people will use the road, commute times will be about the same, and life will be like it is today. Maybe goods and transportation will improve but that's not QOL.

[asher__jo]

Originally Posted by Carboy15

On Winnipeg's streets, I wouldn't really want many interchanges as Winnipeg would like to turn towards public transit. The whole point of the Perimeter is to divert traffic from the city roads.

Absolutely! Let's stop pretending Winnipeg can afford ANY new interchanges with a huge infrastructure deficit. Roundabouts at intersections like St Mary's & Bishop or Sterling Lyon and Kenastion. We need to drastically rethink our priorities and dedicate extremely little to expressways or road expansion projects.
If you look at the most recent traffic count map, many streets in Winnipeg have excess capacity that could be repurposed for transit priority or wider sidewalks and tree planting.
https://carfreeamerica.net/road-diet-guide/

[bodaggin]

Originally Posted by WildCake

When I think of thriving cities, a 4+ lane expressway or freeway is not the first thing that comes to mind. More like if I'm trying to imagine dull grey dystopia.

This is the most woke, tree-hugger, car-hating nonsense. So you hate every other city in North America? Winnipeg is in the running for the largest city in the world without a freeway. Dedicated bike paths and rapid transit are all good. I think we all support those. But a basic freeway is necessary too.

Originally Posted by asher__jo

Absolutely! Let's stop pretending Winnipeg can afford ANY new interchanges with a huge infrastructure deficit.

Fair, we're broke. But we can't grow without infrastructure. Alternatively, I suggested in another thread the easiest way to increase road capacity: change work shift times. Spread out rush hour instead of jamming everyone into a 1hr window. It costs nothing.

But of course the relic sheep responded "ohh no, we can't do that!". Human herds must sheep together.

I swear the only way to fix this city is to bulldoze the whole thing and restart from scratch.

Originally Posted by Wpgstvsouth94

100%! This city looks like a shithole. The quality of life and getting around on a fully grade separated bishop and lag would be life changing.

Thanks WpgStvSouth. Glad there's still a few of us with our heads on straight.

[FactaNV]

I really don't understand this thread sometimes. How can anyone look at urban freeways and the induced demand they cause and think "yeah, gotta get me some of that". You get no marked improvements in traffic times, ugly highways that often have to tear down whole neighbourhoods for the necessary building room and you're saddled with billions of dollars of infrastructure costs, nevermind the cost of maintenance of the life cycle. I'm not really an anti-car guy, I love the freedom of my subie but man, this city can't afford maintenance of what we have, why the hell would you want to deficit spend even more for an ugly, concrete monstrosity? I'll take the extra 4 mins it takes me to get home.

TLDR: There are so many better ways to spend our money.

[FactaNV]

Originally Posted by Wpgstvsouth94

100%! This city looks like a shithole. The quality of life and getting around on a fully grade separated bishop and lag would be life changing. It would actually feel like you are in a thriving city and not a decaying wasteland.. the same goes for the other roads you mentioned.

And how does a concrete multilane highway help beautify Winnipeg? How does high speed highways make Winnipeg a thriving city? Wouldn't it just mean people are even more incentivized to drive instead of walk/bike/transit which would even further deplete what actually drives a thriving city (ie foot traffic and lively cultural scenes)? A multilane highway that'll cover lots of residential and greenspace if you do proper coverleafs. Odd take.

[bodaggin]

Originally Posted by FactaNV

And how does a concrete multilane highway help beautify Winnipeg? How does high speed highways make Winnipeg a thriving city?

Who gives a shit about beauty? What's with this emotional fairy tale stuff? Roads are for about moving about the city! Not lipstick for a pig.

How does it help? 18,000,000 hours

That's how.

Cutting Winnipeg's commute time from the current 22 minutes to 15 minutes with a grade separated inner ring road would save the 400k working Winnipeggers a combined 18 million hours. Which would otherwise be wasted sitting in a car doing SFA. That's how and why.

[bodaggin]

Also, remember this mini discussion came from spending hundreds of millions to change a perfectly working Fermor @ Perimeter clover.

I posted 50-60 other interchanges around the city/province that are higher priority to INSTALL first. Before blowing cash upgrading.

And I get it, it is expensive. Prioritize. Streamline. Strategize. But START. Failing to act got us here. Continuing to fail to act will dig us an even deeper hole.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by asher__jo

Absolutely! Let's stop pretending Winnipeg can afford ANY new interchanges with a huge infrastructure deficit. Roundabouts at intersections like St Mary's & Bishop or Sterling Lyon and Kenastion. We need to drastically rethink our priorities and dedicate extremely little to expressways or road expansion projects.
If you look at the most recent traffic count map, many streets in Winnipeg have excess capacity that could be repurposed for transit priority or wider sidewalks and tree planting.
https://carfreeamerica.net/road-diet-guide/

Some roads need to be roads and high capacity roads, grade separated and all. There are good reasons to do it, have a look at every major European city: all paragons of urbanity, nearly each and every one has major urban freeways. Sorry, roundabouts on high speed and high volume urban expressways isn’t a solution, that dog won’t hunt.