The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[VIce]

Originally Posted by Boris2k7

What is going on with the livery here? I believe I spotted one of the new buses running the #3 the other day, but it was in the standard red + white.

This is the livery for the natural gas busses. The new red+white buses are visually similar but run diesel.

[Boris2k7]

Originally Posted by VIce

This is the livery for the natural gas busses. The new red+white buses are visually similar but run diesel.

That makes sense. Thanks!

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

-Scarborough RT: Uses a very different track & rolling stock technology so it can't interline with the BD subway. It was built this way because it was thought to be much cheaper--it was expected that the SRT would have been the first of a huge number of similar lines all across the GTA (and interestingly enough, in Ottawa as well!) but it had cost overruns and ended up being not much cheaper than a subway. The current plan is to demolish the SRT and extend the BD subway on a similar (but different) route that would also interchange with the Sheppard LRT--the infamous Scarborough subway of recent controversy.

-Sheppard East LRT: Sheppard doesn't have the density or ridership numbers to support a full subway. (It's a suburban road). The Sheppard subway itself is kind of a mistake--it has very low ridership off-peak. Ideally they'd convert the Sheppard subway to LRT to eliminate the transfer.

Also the Yellow line has two halves--the eastern half (straight line from Finch to Union) is the Yonge section and the western half (curvy route from Union to Downsview being extended to Vaughan) is the University-Spadina section. The Yonge section is overcrowded but University-Spadina has room for more capacity. In fact extending the University-Spadina north from Downsview will actually help relieve Yonge because feeder buses in the area will be able to feed into that branch instead of the Yonge branch. Finch West also feeds into that branch as well. It's really just Sheppard East and Eglinton that will be problematic for Yonge, and capacity improvements should provide just enough wiggle room to last until the DRL is built.

From what I know (I may be wrong) these are the current timelines for all these projects:
-Spadina extension (Downsview->Vaughan): Currently U/C opening in 2016
-Eglinton line: Currently U/C opening in 2020 (no idea why it takes so long)
-Finch line: Construction starting next year opening in 2019
-Sheppard East line: Construction starting in 2017 opening in 2021

The undepicted Scarborough subway is supposed to open around 2023 I believe.

The DRL is expected around 2025 or so. It's only just started serious planning, and generally large scale RT projects take a decade to go from planning to completion. (Look at Confederation Line in Ottawa for example--2008 to 2018).

great summary.

The transfer between the Sheppard LRT and the Sheppard subway will literally involve walking across a platform. currently at Don Mills station the Sheppard subway trains only pull into the north side of the station, with the south side platform left untouched other than to park a train at night. When the Sheppard LRT is built that south platform will be converted to an LRT platform and LRT riders will literally just have to walk across the platform and get on the subway.

Currently the Sheppard subway is extremely low ridership, but has been downgraded in capacity to deal with that. it runs every 5 minutes all day long, and has shorter trains, essentially limiting it to roughly 3,600 PPHD maximum. (a "standard" Toronto subway is 26,000 PPHD by comparison, and Yonge will soon be 38,000) It fills to that at rush hour which makes it seem busy, but really it is still only roughly 1/8th as busy as Yonge or Bloor. They looked at converting the Sheppard subway when they did the initial EA in 2009 or so, and they figured it would have cost $600 million to convert it, a cost a little too high to justify eliminating a simple transfer.

You will also be able to transfer roughly half way along the Sheppard LRT to the Scarborough subway extension, which will in effect be a replacement of the SRT.

The province was planning to use RT tech in Hamilton as well, they even prepared an EA for that. They also wanted a line from Kipling to Sherway Gardens, and Kipling station was actually built to accommodate the RT platform, it would have been on the south side of the bus terminal.

[kwoldtimer]

Region of Waterloo council has just approved the ION LRT project.

[advance62]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Region of Waterloo council has just approved the ION LRT project.

100% Green light, the project is a go

[Aylmer]

A great step for transit in Canada! I'd wager that KW will be setting the bar for transit in medium-sized cities and others like Québec, Winnipeg, Hamilton, London and Halifax should take note. I hope that this is the beginning of a trend in Canada, just like the Strasbourg Tramway sparked the explosion in the number of transit systems which lasts until today. In less than 20 years, over 30 new systems were built, totalling almost 100 new lines in small and medium-sized cities around France.

I'm not saying that we should expect 100 new LRT lines in Canada by 2035, but ION is indeed setting a bar and it'll be interesting to see what comes of it.

[Chadillaccc]

That is fantastic! Canada now has four huge rail transit expansions on the go with Vancouver's Evergreen Line, Toronto's Spadina Extension, Ottawa's Confederation Line, and Kitchener's ION, with Calgary just completing its newest line only a year ago, and Edmonton poised to start their massive new SE line soon!! This is truly a golden age for rapid transit in Canada it seems!

[Ramako]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

That is fantastic! Canada now has four huge rail transit expansions on the go with Vancouver's Evergreen Line, Toronto's Spadina Extension, Ottawa's Confederation Line, and Kitchener's ION, with Calgary just completing its newest line only a year ago, and Edmonton poised to start their massive new SE line soon!! This is truly a golden age for rapid transit in Canada it seems!

Don't forget the Eglinton Line which has already started tunnelling: https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msa=0&ms....004593,0.008393&source=embed&dg=feature

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Agreed with Dleung. All of Calgary's Ctrain extensions go through residential areas currently. Only one future line is being considered to go through industrial areas (Southeast Line) and that is only to get through it to the residential neighbourhoods in the southeast and the major business centres currently under construction at Quarry Park and Seton.


All of Vancouver's Skytrain lines go through residential areas and none planned for the future are expected to go through industrial parks or non-populated hydro corridors, or anything comparable.

The Vaughan subway extension is not in the middle of nowhere.

First, Toronto's transit success comes from the feeder bus interchanges with the rapid transit system. And the Vaughan extension will bring thousands of people within a short feeder bus ride of rapid transit. That right there is a huge boon.

Second, there is much redevelopment potential around most of the station sites including the 407 site. The City of Vaughan has big plans for those lands, and they are not going to stay a Walmart or light industrial long.

I guess Portland was wrong building rail transit into undeveloped land?
The truth is we are not in 1950 anymore. We must extend transit to development sites, just like we do roads. Otherwise you will just get auto friendly developments for the most part.
If there is no quality transit for people to use when they move in, then they will just default to a car.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The Vaughn line might have some merits, but not passed the University. Either way, I would certainly not compare TO's subway plans to Calgary, Vancouver or even Ottawa; we build are lines in the most efficient way possible; i.e. a mix of surface/elevated and we go underground only where necessary.

I agree the Vaughan line should be elevated. No need to have to have gone underground.

I never supported the Transitway's concept. I believe a city should invest in a dense urban rapid transit in the central city (subway) and serve the suburbs with cheap, yet efficient commuter rail.

Why just focus on the inner city? Ottawa did something right as it has the highest transit usage rates of any city its size in North America. Much of that success came from bringing quality rapid transit to the suburbs.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

great summary.
The transfer between the Sheppard LRT and the Sheppard subway will literally involve walking across a platform.

The transfer is still not good. By the time you get off the train, walk across the platform and wait for the LRT to depart. You will be halfway to your destination in a car.

Should we force transfers on other rapid transit lines halfway through someones trip as well? How about we split the Bloor subway at Pape and force people to cross platform transfer?

or how about we force everyone to transfer trains at Summerhill station on the Yonge line?

Also, the Sheppard subway is not as underused as people think. Are you aware that the Sheppard subway has higher ridership per km than some of the subway lines in London. In fact, the Sheppard subway has higher ridership per km than most subway lines in Chicago.

My question to you guys. If Sheppard is so underused, then should the M4 in Milan be shut down, as well as the Purple and Orange lines in Chicago?


Subway Line---------------------------------------------------Km----------Daily Weekday Ridership--------Passengers per KM

Yonge-Uni-Spadina Line Toronto---------------------------30.2-----------------732,000-------------------------24,238

Bloor-Danforth Line Toronto-------------------------------26.2-------------------510,000----------------------19,446

R 4th Ave Line Brooklyn-----------------------------------4.2----------------------58,000----------------------13,810

Sheppard Line Toronto------------------------------------5.5----------------------49,000-----------------------8,909

District Line London--------------------------------------64------------------------556,000---------------------8,688

M4 Line Milan--------------------------------------------4.1-------------------------27,000----------------------6,585

Red Line Dan Ryan Branch Chicago-------------------15.1-------------------------50,000---------------------3,311

Blue Line Chicago---------------------------------------55.7------------------------165,000-------------------2,962

METRO Line Brescia--------------------------------------13.7-----------------------40,000--------------------2,920

METRO OSLO---------------------------------------------80------------------------227,000--------------------2,838

Purple Line Chicago-------------------------------------6.3---------------------------10,000-------------------1,587

Orange Line Chicago-----------------------------------21.1----------------------------28,000------------------1,327

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by Ramako

Don't forget the Eglinton Line which has already started tunnelling: https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msa=0&ms....004593,0.008393&source=embed&dg=feature

Shit! I knew I was forgetting something! Also, someone will probably call me out for ommiting the NAIT extension in Edmonton too but I did mention the word "huge"... still, amazing to see so much going on.

[caltrane74]

Originally Posted by Ramako

Don't forget the Eglinton Line which has already started tunnelling: https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msa=0&ms....004593,0.008393&source=embed&dg=feature

Exciting! Almost at Caledonia!

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

The transfer is still not good. By the time you get off the train, walk across the platform and wait for the LRT to depart. You will be halfway to your destination in a car.

Gosh, how fast do you drive?

As someone who has to make a daily useless transfer, I can tell you that it really isn't as bad as everyone seems to make it out to be so long as it's coordinated and simple. Of course, even if the transfer is eliminated there, many more people will have to transfer to a bus that they wouldn't have with the longer LRT route plus the additional stations.

But the question here isn't really 'transfer vs. no-transfer'. It's whether making the trip 30 seconds faster for the people lucky enough to live near one of the two new subway stations is worth an extra billion or two and the extra time required for everyone else in Scarborough.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Shit! I knew I was forgetting something! Also, someone will probably call me out for ommiting the NAIT extension in Edmonton too but I did mention the word "huge"... still, amazing to see so much going on.

no worries, you only missed the largest infrastructure project in Canada

There are a bunch of other rail projects going on in Toronto right now as well. Georgetown south, UPX, etc. the EA for all day 2 way GO service on the Stouffville line is half finished, the Richmond hill GO line is getting extended (possibly the quietest infrastructure project in the GTA, I didn't even know about it until a few weeks ago and its already half finished construction), etc. No worries though, there is a huge amount of stuff going on in Toronto right now, its hard to keep track of.

The transfer will literally take 2 minutes. you are lucky to be able to get to the end of your street in 2 minutes in a car. the LRTs will pull up 5 meters from the subway trains, you get up, walk over, and sit down again. As I previously mentioned, you will be able to transfer to the B-D line at McCowen as well.


the chicago and Milan things are silly, nobody is saying that we should close Sheppard, but rather simply not further expand it. there are many other lines with much higher ridership that we can build for much less money. subways don't make sense on Sheppard in a Toronto context, Scarborough will have roughly 2x the ridership as a full Sheppard line (7.6km vs 17.6km), The Yonge extension will have 2x the ridership, (6.8km vs. 17.6km), the DRL will have 3x the ridership at full length (roughly 17.5km), or 2x the ridership at minimal length (6km), Eglinton will have 1.5x the ridership, etc. That is roughly $30 billion in subway lines right there. uness you are suggesting that we somehow have more than $30 Billion dollars lying around for subway expansion, give up. We can't forget the rest of the GTA outside of Toronto either, who need all day GO, electrified urban rail along the lakeshore, BRTs, LRTS, etc.


As for new LRTs in other cities, Mississauga and Hamilton both have serious planning underway for one and the provincial government will have funding for them in the spring budget. (whether that budget passes is still a question up in the air)

[1overcosc]

Currently U/C:
-Vancouver: Evergreen line.
-Edmonton: NAIT extension.
-Kitchener/Waterloo: ION LRT
-Toronto: Union Pearson Express, Spadina subway extension, Eglinton line, Richmond Hill GO extension.
-Ottawa: Confederation Line
-Montreal: Train de l'Est

This may be a record.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

A great step for transit in Canada! I'd wager that KW will be setting the bar for transit in medium-sized cities and others like Québec, Winnipeg, Hamilton, London and Halifax should take note. I hope that this is the beginning of a trend in Canada, just like the Strasbourg Tramway sparked the explosion in the number of transit systems which lasts until today. In less than 20 years, over 30 new systems were built, totalling almost 100 new lines in small and medium-sized cities around France.

I'm not saying that we should expect 100 new LRT lines in Canada by 2035, but ION is indeed setting a bar and it'll be interesting to see what comes of it.

Hamilton's taken note and decided the correct response is the descend into tribalism flinging 'facts' around and continuing to enforce the division that the escarpment traces.

[miketoronto]

This is in German, but you get the idea from the video. This is what Greater Toronto needs on the GO Train lines.

http://youtu.be/Xov-upY88cU

http://youtu.be/Xov-upY88cU

[miketoronto]

This is another good example of what our GO Train lines should be like. This is a project in Milano to convert infrequent commuter train lines into metro like regional rail lines.

http://youtu.be/ApAOiLoOUPk

Just to show how far behind we are.
This is Milan's regional railway network including intercity service. All for area with less people than the GTA.
http://youtu.be/jAfJRG3IonU

[Innsertnamehere]

^$$$ the first step is all day GO.

Metrolinx seems interested in implementing something similar on the lakeshore corridor at least, but probably more along the lines of 10 to 15 minute frequencies with large bilevel EMUs.