Canadian LRT/RT projects U/C

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Luisito

That is a good point, and actually Canada has already fallen behind. Just look at our commuter train systems. Most of the western world has moved onto to EMUs. Canada is still using diesel locomotives to haul their commuter trains.

RER will change most of that in 7-8 years. And GO is the majority of commuter rail service in the country.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

RER will change most of that in 7-8 years. And GO is the majority of commuter rail service in the country.

Go trains will get electric locomotives which is better than what they have now but still would be better if they got modern EMUS to replace the current cars. Even electric locomotives are becoming rare in the rest of the world.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Luisito

Go trains will get electric locomotives which is better than what they have now but still would be better if they got modern EMUS to replace the current cars. Even electric locomotives are becoming rare in the rest of the world.

From what I understand they're supposed to start with electric locomotives because the agency has so many bi-level coaches and it would be impossible to find buyers for all those in a short time frame. So using locomotives would allow the current coaches to be used until the end of their useful lives at which point they'd be phased out or until other agencies need to replace their stock and want to buy them.

I don't see that as a problem or as a sign of being somehow "behind" though. The main advantage of EMUs over electric locomotives is that EMUs have faster acceleration due to having more powered axles which reduces the chance of wheel slippage. But GO has very wide stop spacing of around 5km so acceleration doesn't matter as much as it would on a system with closer stops. Plus the issue of wheel slippage mostly pertains to lower speeds under 30km/h when first starting out, while electric locomotives are much faster accelerating once they get going. Locomotives also have the advantage of being simpler to maintain than EMUs since there are fewer motors with each one being more powerful and not crammed underneath passenger coaches.

Also, electric locomotives are cheaper to buy, operate, and maintain than diesel locomotives since they're mechanically simpler and electricity is cheaper than diesel. So GO could just buy and use more locomotives per train. If there were two locomotives per train instead of one that would double the number of powered axles, basically like going from a 2-wheel drive road vehicle to a 4x4. In fact, some EMUs only have two powered cars per train such as most versions of the Stadler Kiss. So it can be perfectly fine for a service with wide stop spacing. And there are still plenty of examples of suburban services using locomotives including some Paris Transilien and Zurich S-Bahn routes.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

What about them? Quite frankly who cares?

They don't have high modal share for transit and have fewer seats. And most of those seats are highly suburban where transit isn't a substantial deciding issue. Those cities won't be getting much beyond wrapping up what is underway or just about to be tendered.

Having lived in Alberta for most of the past decade, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

Having lived in Alberta for most of the past decade, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

In terms of federal funding? I can't see it. But feel free to explain your POV. Even your provincial government is now pivoting to regional rail as a priority.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Luisito

Go trains will get electric locomotives which is better than what they have now but still would be better if they got modern EMUS to replace the current cars. Even electric locomotives are becoming rare in the rest of the world.

Do you know how big GO Transit is? Changing to EMUs on top of electrification and building a mostly grade separated suburban rail network, would be a bridge to far. And the benefits aren't really all that clear. Yes, EMUs are a bit more efficient and accelerate better. But those benefits don't come close to justifying junking a thousand rail carriages. Moving to EMUs should rightfully be saved for a future step once they have the system running and some experience and can define the specs more appropriately.

A big reason why they likely avoided conversion to EMU, other than not wasting existing rolling stock is infrastructure. They would have needed all kinds of upgrades to existing facilities, and would even need new ones for EMUs. That's massively expensive to what is already the most expensive transit project in Canadian history. Saving this for future phase is eminently sensible.

[ssiguy]

GO has nearly a 1000 bi-level cars and to sell them for pennies on the dollar just to get EMUs would be a horrifying waste of taxpayer funds.

Also, compared to most suburban rail systems, GO stations are fairly far apart so the slightly slower de/acceleration is not as big a deal as on most systems. As noted, EMUs require more maintenance and if one section goes out the whole train has to be taken out of service. Also due to GO carrying passengers nearly 100 km, electric locos are the better choice as comfort becomes more of an issue on long hauls and locos are smoother and quieter than EMUs.

I'm quite sure the GO will be eventually moving over to EMU for it's core inner city routes as they have to begin to retire some of their current bi-levels but there is no rush to do so now, They will probably keep their bi-level electric locos for the longer distance and express routes. In transit, there is no such thing as one-size-fits-all.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Do you know how big GO Transit is? Changing to EMUs on top of electrification and building a mostly grade separated suburban rail network, would be a bridge to far. And the benefits aren't really all that clear. Yes, EMUs are a bit more efficient and accelerate better. But those benefits don't come close to justifying junking a thousand rail carriages. Moving to EMUs should rightfully be saved for a future step once they have the system running and some experience and can define the specs more appropriately.

A big reason why they likely avoided conversion to EMU, other than not wasting existing rolling stock is infrastructure. They would have needed all kinds of upgrades to existing facilities, and would even need new ones for EMUs. That's massively expensive to what is already the most expensive transit project in Canadian history. Saving this for future phase is eminently sensible.

Yes go transit is very big, this is true but the current plan is not to change to electric locos all at once. Not sure why they couldn't upgrade some lines to EMUS, specially the most busy lines. Would be interesting to know how many of the Go train cars have been around since the 90s. They all look quite dated.


Some one above mentioned other cities that still have loco hauled commuter trains. Those same cities are currently phasing out those trains and upgrading to EMUS. The vast majority of Eurpean cities no longer use locomotives. In a year or two none will. BY the time Ontario decides to upgrade to EMUs it will be even more expensive.

[SpongeG]

Surrey/Langley skytrain extension is in a public engagement where they are looking for feedback on the 8 stations, you can see the station renders at the link.

https://engage.gov.bc.ca/govtogether...gley-skytrain/

[Innsertnamehere]

GO still operates train cars from the late 1970’s from my understanding- but any that age have been renovated.

[ssiguy]

Remember that the bi-levels themselves last much longer than EMU trains because they have few moving parts. Technically, there is very little that can wrong with them as they are essentially just a dressed up metal boxes with wheels on the bottom and as long as the interior is well maintained/upgraded from time to time, they can last a very long time and decades longer than EMUs because each EMU car has an operating engine.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Luisito

Yes go transit is very big, this is true but the current plan is not to change to electric locos all at once. Not sure why they couldn't upgrade some lines to EMUS, specially the most busy lines. Would be interesting to know how many of the Go train cars have been around since the 90s. They all look quite dated.

Like I mentioned, converting a low frequency diesel commuter rail system to a high frequency electrified suburban rail system is already a massive effort. Indeed, it's the largest transit project in North America and one of the largest in the world right now. A complete change of rolling stock at the same time would have required a whole lot of additional infrastructure to house and maintain a separate fleet and added a lot of operational complications as they mixed various fleets. All of that for very little real gain. EMUs don't give GO substantial increases in capacity or efficiency. At least not to the level that justifies junking a 1000 coaches right away.

Originally Posted by Luisito

Some one above mentioned other cities that still have loco hauled commuter trains. Those same cities are currently phasing out those trains and upgrading to EMUS. The vast majority of European cities no longer use locomotives. In a year or two none will. BY the time Ontario decides to upgrade to EMUs it will be even more expensive.

Why would increasing availability make something more expensive? As it stands, there aren't many EMUs actually certified to operate in North America. So GO would have had a smaller and less competitive market to choose from, than they will in the 2030s when EMU transition starts.

[biguc]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I think it's pretty clear that PP is not the same kind of conservative as Ford which is not just something you see with transit but also stuff like their approaches to handling the pandemic. The majority of PP fans I've (frequently) encountered online hate Ford and place him basically in the same category as Trudeau because of their agreement on things such as opposing the trucker tantrum.

With transit, I think both are opposed to anything that would make a place more urban and less car-centric. But Ford is a pragmatist in that he supports urban transit in places that are already urban to ensure their continued mobility which often requires improvements in capacity and coverage. And he also supports park-n-ride type transit for suburban places to allow them to get into town without the hassle of traffic and parking. But I don't think PP cares about either goal. Based on his comments around the QC tram it seems that he wants suburban residents to have easy car access everywhere they want to go including city centres which even rules out spending on park-n-ride type transit. And also seems to think that urban transit should be as minimal as possible to the point that something rudimentary exists for people who insist on urban living but not wanting to encourage such a sinful, degenerate lifestyle by making it any more pleasant than necessary.

People have forgotten how Ford's first moves as premier including cancelling the Hamilton LRT and starting a stupid fight over sex ed. But
Ford's prime directive is to make developers money. I also suspect he wants people to like him. Neither of those are consistent with austerity and culture wars.

PP is the kind of dude to cancel a transit project that's already under construction just to own the libs. He's a malignant piece of shit who will gladly fuck over the majority of Canadians if it plays to his base. Look at his "war on cars" talk. This is a man who is incapable of forming unique thoughts or being pragmatic.

[DirectionNorth]

Originally Posted by biguc

People have forgotten how Ford's first moves as premier including cancelling the Hamilton LRT and starting a stupid fight over sex ed. But
Ford's prime directive is to make developers money. I also suspect he wants people to like him. Neither of those are consistent with austerity and culture wars.

PP is the kind of dude to cancel a transit project that's already under construction just to own the libs. He's a malignant piece of shit who will gladly fuck over the majority of Canadians if it plays to his base. Look at his "war on cars" talk. This is a man who is incapable of forming unique thoughts or being pragmatic.

That would be an incredible self-own. He can pander to Moose Jaw and Drumheller all he wants, but he'll be a one-term PM if he doesn't play to the suburbanites in the 905 who do broadly support transit expansion, if not the modes that decrease road space.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by DirectionNorth

That would be an incredible self-own. He can pander to Moose Jaw and Drumheller all he wants, but he'll be a one-term PM if he doesn't play to the suburbanites in the 905 who do broadly support transit expansion, if not the modes that decrease road space.

It's also hard to use transit funding as leverage for other goals (like housing), if they don't fund transit.

I'm unsure what he'll actually do. He plays up the War on cars where it suits him (like Quebec City). But other times, he talks about how our infrastructure is falling behind. So who knows?

[niwell]

There's enough stuff already funded / under construction in the GTHA he could probably skate by for a while on lower funding, even if it isn't a prudent long-term move.

[MattBerryOfficial]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The GTA with RER, Montreal with REM and Vancouver with SkyTrain are the only places seeing real efforts to expand rail transit into the suburbs substantially. Unfortunately places that didn't get going over the last few years are probably going to have a tougher tone over the next decade.

Edmonton just completed LRT to Mill Woods, and is currently constructing LRT to outside of the AHD in both the west end and the south west corner of the City.

[DesignerGuy]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The GTA with RER, Montreal with REM and Vancouver with SkyTrain are the only places seeing real efforts to expand rail transit into the suburbs substantially. Unfortunately places that didn't get going over the last few years are probably going to have a tougher tone over the next decade.

I think transit funding will probably get dialed back to Harper levels. Say $2B/yr. And probably a 25% federal contribution. That's enough to give suburban MPs some ribbon cuttings. But not enough to substantially move modal share in suburban areas outside TMV (without actual planning changes too).

Ottawa is building a massive line east, west and south. We even have a train going directly into our airport terminal that connects to downtown. Edmonton and Calgary are also building out their systems. These are all under construction so the funding is already in place!

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by biguc

People have forgotten how Ford's first moves as premier including cancelling the Hamilton LRT and starting a stupid fight over sex ed. But
Ford's prime directive is to make developers money. I also suspect he wants people to like him. Neither of those are consistent with austerity and culture wars.

PP is the kind of dude to cancel a transit project that's already under construction just to own the libs. He's a malignant piece of shit who will gladly fuck over the majority of Canadians if it plays to his base. Look at his "war on cars" talk. This is a man who is incapable of forming unique thoughts or being pragmatic.

The federal government isn't in charge of urban transit. All PP can do is simply pull funding if he so desires. He can't actually cancel a transit project, because the federal government doesn't run projects. (The exception is HFR, but there's nothing to cancel anyway given the glacial pace that the LPC has moved that project forward...).

Not sure about other provinces, but in Ontario, losing federal funding won't make much of a difference. The province is already providing the lion share's of funding and federal dollars are just a bit of gravy.

[biguc]

Cancel a project outright or cut up to 50% of its funding is a distinction without a difference. All that matters is that he fucks over city dwellers. And yes, I do think PP is that empty-headed and out of touch with reality.