Winnipeg Construction X

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by esquire

I know that for at least the first 25-odd years The Forks' vision for that area was to have it take on an Indigenous character. With what exactly I don't recall, I don't think it was supposed to be too heavily built up. But I'm not sure if that's still the case.

This is correct, it will never be developed. It's now called Niizhoziibean.

It's part of the walking loop and this year they started construction of a small seating/gathering area intended for drum circles and spiritual ceremonies. Should be done in spring. This is also why they moved the biovator.

Can find out more about it here: https://www.theforks.com/attractions/niizhoziibean

[esquire]

^ Thanks for the link. That's a pretty good plan.. I'm fine with The Forks getting built up, but it makes sense to keep some of the site forested. It's kind of amazing that it remained that way all those years despite being pretty well the dead centre of the city.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Thanks for the link. That's a pretty good plan.. I'm fine with The Forks getting built up, but it makes sense to keep some of the site forested. It's kind of amazing that it remained that way all those years despite being pretty well the dead centre of the city.

I don't think the forest goes back that far. There was another rail line through there until the 1970s so the land wasn't really usable. Old illustrations suggest that the south point was just a field. To the best of my knowledge, there really weren't any forests as such in Winnipeg before people began planting trees in the 19th century. If there had been any, they probably would have been cut down for firewood.

[Wpg_Guy]

Originally Posted by H2man

Just looking at google maps and wondering...has there ever been an appetite to develop the South Point Park, on the south side of the Assinaboine across from The Forks?

I don't mean a complete urbanization- even just development as a park, with something unique. At the point it's literally the fork of the two rivers. I have heard of some resistance to the development of the parcels of surface lots across from CMHR into high-ish rise residentials, with the argument being that it "ruins" the separation of The Forks as a special place from the downtown and its urban-ness (I do not share this opinion).

So in response, The Forks itself could just grow across the Assinaboine. Again, I don't want to wreck perfectly good central greenspace, but it's ripe for something more special than what's currently there, I think.

Any thoughts on that? Just trying to spur discussion.

There is development happening in there right now, some landscaping/Amphitheatre was started this fall.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Andy6

I don't think the forest goes back that far. There was another rail line through there until the 1970s so the land wasn't really usable. Old illustrations suggest that the south point was just a field. To the best of my knowledge, there really weren't any forests as such in Winnipeg before people began planting trees in the 19th century. If there had been any, they probably would have been cut down for firewood.

I wasn't suggesting that it's some kind of virgin forest or anything like that, just surprised that it was left the way it is and never built up, paved over and integrated into the urban fabric of the area. Unless I'm mistaken I don't think there were ever any long-standing buildings on that site... I don't think CN had any of its facilities there or anything like that. If there were any, they were gone long before my time.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by esquire

I wasn't suggesting that it's some kind of virgin forest or anything like that, just surprised that it was left the way it is and never built up, paved over and integrated into the urban fabric of the area. Unless I'm mistaken I don't think there were ever any long-standing buildings on that site... I don't think CN had any of its facilities there or anything like that. If there were any, they were gone long before my time.

I guess it was just CN property and not very usable because of a lack of access. It was crossed by two busy rail lines and there was also a little spur line that connected them, running through the middle of the point, making the land even less usable.

I have a photo that shows the area around 1930 and the only trees were along the riverbank. There was nothing there, it appears, other than the rail lines.

[Jeff]

from being a stripped and desolate patch of land in the midst of a major freight yard this point of land has regenerated back into a pristine state quite remarkably!

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by Jeff

from being a stripped and desolate patch of land in the midst of a major freight yard this point of land has regenerated back into a pristine state quite remarkably!

You're right, Jeff. It's hard to understand how, if the soil and climate make it so easy for trees to grow, there seem to have been virtually no trees in the first place in the area, other than scrub oaks along the riverbank.

[plrh]

I would bet that land is 2 or 3m higher than original prairie from all of the rail embankment fill. Interesting idea about the trees. Similarly, what did Assiniboine Forest look like 100 or 150 years ago? Would removing the bison be enough to allow trees to grow?

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by trueviking

It meant they had to come up with the other half, which they had no interest in doing....kind of makes me skeptical that they will want to find the money for the whole thing anytime soon.

cuz you know....potholes.

Pretty tough for any responsible city councillor to push for funding for an AT bridge even partial when three current city bridges are past there best before date by about 50 years, no?

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by plrh

I would bet that land is 2 or 3m higher than original prairie from all of the rail embankment fill. Interesting idea about the trees. Similarly, what did Assiniboine Forest look like 100 or 150 years ago? Would removing the bison be enough to allow trees to grow?

Assiniboine Park was a dairy farm. There were several of those along Kenaston, I believe. I don't know what the forest was. It was supposed to be the next phase of Tuxedo.

[Jeff]

old aerial shots of the Assiniboine park area show the new suburbs were carved into scrubby forest. so i'm sure the original state of the area wasn't too far off from what assiniboine forest is like now.

[flatlander]

If you look at old photos of Portage and Main everything is bare. I've never understood that. I've read in the past that the area was forested for a couple of miles around the rivers but bare beyond that, due to fire etc. I would imagine areas around Portage and Main were cleared for firewood?

Part of the reason South Point wasn't developed when the Forks was redeveloped was the lack of servicing. Perhaps I'm being cynical but it seemed pretty easy for the Forks to dedicate undevelopable land across the river to the Aboriginal community.

[DavefromSt.Vital]

Originally Posted by Andy6

You're right, Jeff. It's hard to understand how, if the soil and climate make it so easy for trees to grow, there seem to have been virtually no trees in the first place in the area, other than scrub oaks along the riverbank.

Fire

https://www.nps.gov/tapr/learn/nature/fire-and-grazing-in-the-prairie.htm

[Authentic_City]

Bur Oak (aka scrub oak) typically grows in dry uplands away from the banks of the river. Plants more tolerant of flooding would occupy the banks and floodplain area (willow, cottonwood). This link provides a good overview of the typical riparian forest in Winnipeg.

https://winnipeg.ca/publicworks/parksOpenSpace/NaturalistServices/NaturalAreas/Riverbottom.stm

Bur oak was plentiful in Winnipeg but was harvested pretty quickly. I’m sure it was all cut and used by the time any photos would have been taken around portage & main. Look at any of the buildings remaining from the earliest time period (Ross House 1855, Seven Oaks House 1853, St B Musuem 1851) all built with squared oak logs, red river frame style. Must have cut everything they could in the 1850s.

[Hecate]

There was no forests of any kind ever at portage and main. The riverbanks along the red would flood and erode every year. Making it basically impossible for trees to exist along the entire lengths of the red and assiniboine rivers. Most of the wood used in the early days of the city came from the birds hill area.

[Authentic_City]

^Um, no. “impossible for trees to exist along the entire lengths of the red and assiniboine rivers”. Hardly. During the Red River Settlement in the 1810s to 1850s, the historic record shows that the east side of the red river (eg St B) was observed to be well forested with oak, elm, ash, linden, etc while the west side of the Red was forested for only a narrow strip along the red river — then nothing but open prairie. It was also noted that the Assiniboine, Seine and other tributaries of the red were bordered by forest and wood was cut from these areas after local supplies near the Red River Settlement were depleted. Beaudry Park in Headingley contains a remnant of original riparian river bottom forest that would have been typical along the rivers. Frequent Flooding is part of the riparian forest environment. The erosion you see today in the city is due to deforestation, the draining of wetlands and messing with natural drainage like filling in streams and creeks, etc.

[🌳🌱🌿🌴🍁]

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

.... During the Red River Settlement in the 1810s to 1850s, the historic record shows that the east side of the red river (eg St B) was observed to be well forested with oak, elm, ash, linden, etc while the west side of the Red was forested for only a narrow strip along the red river — then nothing but open prairie....

And there is actually some visual evidence for what you are saying in this painting of The Forks from 1821.


https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/

[AndersUlfBobby]

Anyone know what is going on with the old stock yards land on Marion? Any recent developments?

[robertocarlos]

The Best Western on Hargrave is being torn down very soon. The construction people have a large drill on site and they have drilled some holes already. I think they are putting up a 20 story building.