The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[1overcosc]

Let's see.

The province is funding 100% of Eglinton Crosstown line in Toronto.

The province is funding 28.6% of the Confederation Line in Ottawa.

When Toronto announced the Scarborough subway Queen's Park leaped to give over a billion in funding immediately.

When Ottawa announced Confederation Line phase 2 and asked for $975 million, the province dragged its feet and still has made no commitment.

With facts like these, it's no wonder people are so violently against the proposed transit taxes. As much as the Ontario govt says it will fair to all regions, it's hard to believe given its current record of "regional fairness". Queens Park's definition of that is "give Toronto everything they possibly want and then throw a few crumbs to the rest of the province to shut them up."

If it weren't for the fact that Ontario is broke, they would be bending over backwards to provide 100% provincial funding for the $30b+ Big Move.

I'm getting very, very, VERY close to demanding that the National Capital Region secede from Ontario & Quebec and form its own jurisdiction, and Ontario's neglect is one of the prime reasons.

[Aylmer]

That might not be such a bad idea, considering that both Gatineau and Ottawa are rather ignored by their respective provinces. I don't think Québec or Ontario would actually notice the secession for several weeks at the earliest.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

That might not be such a bad idea, considering that both Gatineau and Ottawa are rather ignored by their respective provinces. I don't think Québec or Ontario would actually notice the secession for several weeks at the earliest.

Very true. I've always wondered whether its Ottawa or Gatineau that gets the worst provincial neglect.

I feel like the Francophone population in Gatineau would not be too enthusiastic about the idea though, and I wouldn't blame them. Suddenly putting them in an anglo-majority province puts them at risk of assimilation.

[caltrane74]

That's actually a good idea.

Plus the feds are rich, Ottawa would get anything they would want.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Very true. I've always wondered whether its Ottawa or Gatineau that gets the worst provincial neglect.

I feel like the Francophone population in Gatineau would not be too enthusiastic about the idea though, and I wouldn't blame them. Suddenly putting them in an anglo-majority province puts them at risk of assimilation.

That's just it! I don't think there would be a huge difference in the French and English population . Ottawa has a large number of francophones as well. This would be an opportunity to make a true bilingual province.

[caltrane74]

Let's say people in Ottawa don't want to seperate from Ontario. A National Capital region could still encompass it and allow for special federal funding. This is such a good idea, as it would allow the feds to direct fund transportation and infrastructure projects in Ottawa.

[Hybrid247]

As long as the special funding isn't controlled by the NCC! I've always thought that if Ottawa and Gatineau were a single municipality and the NCR was its own province/territory there would be much less issues in terms of city planning.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Let's see.

The province is funding 100% of Eglinton Crosstown line in Toronto.

The province is funding 28.6% of the Confederation Line in Ottawa.

When Toronto announced the Scarborough subway Queen's Park leaped to give over a billion in funding immediately.

When Ottawa announced Confederation Line phase 2 and asked for $975 million, the province dragged its feet and still has made no commitment.

With facts like these, it's no wonder people are so violently against the proposed transit taxes. As much as the Ontario govt says it will fair to all regions, it's hard to believe given its current record of "regional fairness". Queens Park's definition of that is "give Toronto everything they possibly want and then throw a few crumbs to the rest of the province to shut them up."

If it weren't for the fact that Ontario is broke, they would be bending over backwards to provide 100% provincial funding for the $30b+ Big Move.

I'm getting very, very, VERY close to demanding that the National Capital Region secede from Ontario & Quebec and form its own jurisdiction, and Ontario's neglect is one of the prime reasons.

Spadina is 29% Provincial.

Eglinton is 100%, sure.

Scarborough funding was not gust given 1 billion. The province is paying the same amount today as they were in 2009, $1.4 billion of the project. They funded the LRT in its place in 2009, and the city was responsible to come up with the cash for the difference. the roughly $1.5 billion extra is coming from the feds and the city. The city asked, repeatedly, for the province to fund more and they said no.

transit taxes will only be in the GTHA, and the proposed projects the taxes will fund is roughly equivalent proportionate to individual municipalities population. I've run the numbers for what Hamilton will pay into the taxes and what they will get from it, and they get almost dollar for dollar the correct amount.

The GTA will pay for its own transit, I don't know where the hell people are getting other ideas.

Also, there was a report at one point somewhere that Toronto loses 6 billion annually that goes to subsidize other regions in the Province. I.E. the province collects 6 billion more every year in the GTA than it spends there.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

transit taxes will only be in the GTHA, and the proposed projects the taxes will fund is roughly equivalent proportionate to individual municipalities population. I've run the numbers for what Hamilton will pay into the taxes and what they will get from it, and they get almost dollar for dollar the correct amount.

The GTA will pay for its own transit, I don't know where the hell people are getting other ideas.

I'm well aware of that. The violent opposition to the transit taxes from outside the GTHA comes from the fact that its hard to believe the Ontario government when it says it won't screw over non-GTHA-ers.

There's a reason why everybody is under the false impression that the transit tax scheme is an ROO-to-Toronto subsidy when it isn't.

[1overcosc]

Spadina is 29% Provincial.
Eglinton is 100%, sure.

Eglinton is 100% because the province announced it would give enough money for the entire Transit City plan. Imagine that--the city doesn't have to give a single goddamn cent, while Ottawa has to pay almost half of its transit plan all by itself.

And the nerve and arrogance of Toronto is even worse. When Transit City exceeded its budget, the city demanded the province give even more to cover all the difference. How dare the City of Toronto be made to pay for any of its own transit!

The province is paying the same amount today as they were in 2009, $1.4 billion of the project. They funded the LRT in its place in 2009, and the city was responsible to come up with the cash for the difference. the roughly $1.5 billion extra is coming from the feds and the city. The city asked, repeatedly, for the province to fund more and they said no.

Wow. Again, Toronto's arrogance. The government gives them 100% funding. When the project is made more expensive because of Toronto's silly demands (Rob Ford's SUBWAYS SUBWAYS SUBWAYS), the province has to give even more. Again, how dare Toronto pay for anything itself!

I'm sorry for being so ranty, it's not usually my style, but as an Ottawan it REALLY PISSES ME OFF when we're left scrumbling for $$$ for transit while Toronto gets everything on a silver platter.

[ssiguy]

I've been saying this for ever, Toronto is Ontario's spoiled child.

Kitchener is having to pay a good chunk of it's LRT as is Ottawa and Queen's Park hasn't offered a nickel to London for it's BRT. The GTA still has less than half the provinces population but you would never know it by the way Queen's Park throws money at it and even the mention of Toronto paying it's fair share is considered heresy.

As for the NCR becoming a new province, the feds would NEVER allow it. They know that much of the federalist vote comes from greater Hull and those are important federalist votes in any Quebec referendum. Quebec City on the other hand under a PQ government would be delighted at the prospect of a NCR province and Ottawa knows it.

[Innsertnamehere]

A lot of people want Toronto to separate, wouldn't that be nice? and why don't we split off northern ontario while we are at it! then we can give Windsor to Michigan, Give London its own province, and make the province of cottage country, ottawa valley, central ontario, and southwest ontario. that would work perfectly!

as for transit city, no, the province did not give more. they actually cut funding. The original amount was going to be $12 billion with a larger network, but they cut $4 billion of that.

also, the money gets spread around in different ways. The province has been building huge new mega hospitals across Ontario for the last little while, only one of them is in the GTA. Those things probably cost close to half a billion each alone. no idea if they are in Ottawa.

You are also discounting the huge amount of money the province is sinking into the 417, along with the highway 7 twinning they did a few years ago. the only highway upgrades Toronto has had is a small widening of the 401 for 2km and a 15km extension of the 404. we have the 407 expansion going on, but that is paying for itself from tolls.

and guess who got fancy new transitway openings and an O-Train through the 2000's while Toronto got nothing? Ottawa. what goes around comes around. Toronto is getting the buck right now, but a decade ago Toronto was getting nothing. Toronto went 12 years, 12 years without any form of rapid transit funding. (1994-2006)

[vegeta_skyline]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

A lot of the time, Queen's Park contributes much more than its 1/3. Same with the Scarborough Subway and the Province owned GO transit.

Only because the Fed's rarely step in with their 1/3 share for the economic engine and most important city in the country.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Eglinton is 100% because the province announced it would give enough money for the entire Transit City plan. Imagine that--the city doesn't have to give a single goddamn cent, while Ottawa has to pay almost half of its transit plan all by itself.

And the nerve and arrogance of Toronto is even worse. When Transit City exceeded its budget, the city demanded the province give even more to cover all the difference. How dare the City of Toronto be made to pay for any of its own transit!



Wow. Again, Toronto's arrogance. The government gives them 100% funding. When the project is made more expensive because of Toronto's silly demands (Rob Ford's SUBWAYS SUBWAYS SUBWAYS), the province has to give even more. Again, how dare Toronto pay for anything itself!

I'm sorry for being so ranty, it's not usually my style, but as an Ottawan it REALLY PISSES ME OFF when we're left scrumbling for $$$ for transit while Toronto gets everything on a silver platter.

Sounds like a lot of whining from someone who doesnt know what's going on. Ignoring the fact that Ottawa is a small town with minor traffic problems, the province never promised to fund 100% of Transit City.

And if you're so big on fairness, why don't you cry about the extra opeartional subsidies or the capital investment OC transpo received in the past?

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by theman23

Sounds like a lot of whining from someone who doesnt know what's going on. Ignoring the fact that Ottawa is a small town with minor traffic problems, the province never promised to fund 100% of Transit City.

And if you're so big on fairness, why don't you cry about the extra opeartional subsidies or the capital investment OC transpo received in the past?

"Small town"--sure. The capital of Canada with 1 million people. Don't dismiss Ottawa's transit needs by belittling the city.

The province originally promised 100% funding for TC but backed down when cost overruns happened, and Toronto didn't stop whining about it.

Never once did Ottawa get additional funding that Toronto didn't. I don't know what you're referring to by 'extra operational subsidies' that OC gets.

You are also discounting the huge amount of money the province is sinking into the 417, along with the highway 7 twinning they did a few years ago. the only highway upgrades Toronto has had is a small widening of the 401 for 2km and a 15km extension of the 404. we have the 407 expansion going on, but that is paying for itself from tolls.

and guess who got fancy new transitway openings and an O-Train through the 2000's while Toronto got nothing? Ottawa. what goes around comes around. Toronto is getting the buck right now, but a decade ago Toronto was getting nothing. Toronto went 12 years, 12 years without any form of rapid transit funding. (1994-2006)

Those 12 years without funding are because Toronto refuses to ever spend any of its own money. Much of Ottawa's transit progress has been made by spending ITS OWN MONEY. (gasp). Ottawa recently forked over $900M for the Confederation Line, it will soon be forking over another $1.2B. That's $2.1B. Of its own municipal money. Over a period of what will be about 15 years. As Toronto is 3 times larger (with a larger commercial tax base I may add) it could easily pay $6.3B of its own municipal money for transit. Hey isn't that the cost of the DRL?

Yes, Ottawa gets highway upgrades--after decades of no highway upgrades at all.

"Fancy new transit openings in the 2000s"? There weren't any, really. The original Transitway network was completed between 1983 and 1995. Then there was nothing until the short section between Pinecrest and Bayshore opened in 2009 (that funded entirely by the city itself), and the Barrhaven Transitway in 2011 (funded with federal stimulus money). I don't know who funded the O-Train that opened in 2001 but even if it was 100% provincial its total cost was only $21 million which is a pittance by transit capital funding standards.

No megahospital projects in Ottawa either.

Again, I'll repeat. The province is funding 100% of the cost of Toronto's newest transit line. Never in my wildest dreams would they ever do that for Ottawa. Hardly fair.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

As for the NCR becoming a new province, the feds would NEVER allow it. They know that much of the federalist vote comes from greater Hull and those are important federalist votes in any Quebec referendum. Quebec City on the other hand under a PQ government would be delighted at the prospect of a NCR province and Ottawa knows it.

Never thought about that before. I knew that QC nationalism would come into play in any NCR provincehood scenario, but I would have thought it would be more QC nationalists, both inside and outside the NCR, against part of Quebec being severed away, and the dangerous possible pro-partition precedent it would set.

[Vertigo3000]

I don't understand why anyone is ripping on Toronto... It's the province funding it, so what!? Toronto asked for the funding, so did Ottawa and Hamilton and everywhere else. It's not the people of Toronto responsible for the provinces decisions. Those accusations are arrogant, not the people of the city. Hate the province not Toronto.

[Mrs Sauga]

Originally Posted by Vertigo3000

I don't understand why anyone is ripping on Toronto... It's the province funding it, so what!? Toronto asked for the funding, so did Ottawa and Hamilton and everywhere else. It's not the people of Toronto responsible for the provinces decisions. Those accusations are arrogant, not the people of the city. Hate the province not Toronto.

I don't think they are blaming Toronto. In fact, that poster even said "its not Toronto's fault". They are just frustrated that the Province is giving more to Toronto.

But the reality is that Toronto is the most important city in Ontario. More money needs to spent on it to make it work.

[Innsertnamehere]

"Toronto wasn't willing to pay", funny how the first new project to get funding after those 12 years was in fact paid for partially by the municipality.

Toronto also spends most of its municipal capital money on the streetcars, of which multiple expansions and upgrades were paid for 100% by the city, largely in the 1990's and St. Clair in the mid 2000's.

And you still have the issue of if Ottawa was to get the phase 2 funding, it's network would essentially be built out. Toronto could get 50 billion in funding and it's network would still be inaquadate. There is greater need in Toronto, it's a bigger city with bigger issues. Yes, Ottawa has traffic and congestion, but their Monday morning peak is roughly equivilant to a Sunday mid afternoon in Toronto.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

"Small town"--sure. The capital of Canada with 1 million people. Don't dismiss Ottawa's transit needs by belittling the city.

The province originally promised 100% funding for TC but backed down when cost overruns happened, and Toronto didn't stop whining about it.

Never once did Ottawa get additional funding that Toronto didn't. I don't know what you're referring to by 'extra operational subsidies' that OC gets.

I'm not belittling anything. Travel distances in Ottawa are short. Streets are not as congested. This is true for Hamilton as well (unless you're commuting to the GTA from H). Public transit in these cities is a city building endeavor so that planners can intensify certain corridors and skyscraper geeks can gawk at tall buildings. In Toronto, it is a necessity to get people to where they work.

And no, the original plan was for the province to fund 2/3 of MoveOntario. I'm not sure why this matters so much, since hardly any of that money is actually coming down the pipeline. Are you seriously upset that Ottawa got less empty promises than Toronto did?