Cities that belong in other states

[Steely Dan]

Well, there is Wayne State.

It's obviously not at the same prestige level as Case-Western or Carnegie-Mellon, but it is a major R1 research university with 25,000 students located right in midtown.


But yeah, I think the university issue is probably pretty minor. The fact that Chicago has a small constellation of research universities, some of which are very prestigious, certainly doesn't hurt the city, but I don't see it being the main driver for the different population outcomes between Chicago and Detroit.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

What do you think is attracting the non-Black ethnic groups to Chicago?

That's the million dollar question.

In the case of the giant influx of Latinos into chicago, I think the large availability of cheap-ish housing left behind by the white flighters (and now black flighters)is a significant part of it.

I don't know why a similar dynamic didn't play out in Detroit.

I don't know why Latinos so HEAVILY clustered themselves in Chicagoland within the urban Midwest/Rustbelt.


here are the 1M+ midwest/rustbelt MSAs ranked by percentage of latinos.


MSA latino population (census 2020):

chicago: 2,239,376 (23.3%)
milwaukee: 182,777 (11.6%)
kansas city: 229,233 (10.5%)
grand rapids: 110,671 (10.2%)
indianapolis: 177,787 (8.4%)
rochester: 88,854 (8.1%)
minneapolis: 242,621 (6.8%)
louisville: 82,964 (6.5%)
cleveland: 133,862 (6.4%)
buffalo: 67,476 (5.8%)
columbus: 110,967 (5.2%)
detroit: 219,953 (5.0%)
cincinnati: 95,073 (4.2%)
st. louis: 106,269 (3.8%)
pittsburgh: 52,920 (2.2%)


nationally, latinos now make up 18.5% of the US population as of 2020. chicago is the only major MSA in the region that is at or above the national figure.

What's more, in raw numbers, Chicagoland has more Latinos than those other 14 metro areas COMBINED! which is kinda crazy.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Wigs

I wonder how much of Chicago's loss is Black Boomers and youngest of Silent Generation dying off in large numbers and not being replaced due to much smaller households than previous generations, and how much is flight to suburbs, or leaving Chicagoland altogether for the South/SW.

I don't have the numbers, but a lot of the black flight in Chicago last decade was driven by smaller household sizes. The drop in black households wasn't nearly as dramatic as the black population drop. Galleyfox posted the numbers somewhere on the forum awhile back. Can't find it now

As for those moving to the burbs vs. leaving the metro area altogether, it's a little of both.

The Chicago metro area was net negative overall in terms of black population last decade, so the reverse migration is happening.

[Steely Dan]

Anyway, here's a map I found online of Chicago's L system superimposed on Detroit.



Source: https://detroitography.com/2014/01/1...ransit-routes/


Had such a a legacy rail transit system been in place, would that have been the difference maker between Detroit's household numbers remaining more or less steady since 1950 vs. the 50% drop in households that did happen?

[bnk]

Detroit does not have a heavy rail Metra system too BTW to flood the central business district with those that live in the Burbs.

Chicagoland is not just the El

Metra has a lot of say how the core of Chicago did not fall as other northern cities have. Don't discount Chicago's very extensive regional commuter rail system.

[Velvet_Highground]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Anyway, here's a map I found online of Chicago's L system superimposed on Detroit.



Source: https://detroitography.com/2014/01/1...ransit-routes/


Had such a a legacy rail transit system been in place, would that have been the difference maker between Detroit's household numbers remaining more or less steady since 1950 vs. the 50% drop in households that did happen?

Very cool overlay, detroitography does great work. Over all if Detroit had such a rail system elevated, subway and or a mixture of the two built approximately in that way the city likely would have still lost some population but it would be a million plus city easy. I would make a couple tweaks such as the orange line stopping at Oakman & Grand River as it was a major commercial center. The green line continuing west through the Ford HQ and into Fairline Center / U of M Dearborn & the Dearborn train station. Regular commuter rail could cover Michigan Ave / 94 to the Wayne Truck plant & Metro Airport. The Pink line continuing NW to Northland & into the Southfield central business district would be another small change.

Though discussing suburban connections to secondary office centers if Detroit has a proper transit network is getting ahead of ourselves as development patterns would change. I would still suggest the Woodward line running into central Royal Oak north of 696 so there is an intermodal option for commuter rail to Birmingham/Troy & Pontiac.

Detroit would still suffer from automotive decline however just as the white collar related sectors survived and thrived during times of good business a strong heavy rail system anchoring people & businesses to their neighborhoods in mid-century Detroit would have kept key economic sectors in the city as happened in other large cities that saw deindustrialization. The big difference between Detroit and the others is the loss of its mass-transit system just at the time when industrial growth began to slow down.

Mid-century Detroit was one of the top financial centers in the country after New York and Chicago & San Francisco. There’s still a strong financial sector in the region but it’s mostly related to auto financing as opposed to auto financing being one part of a greater financial industry as it used to be. Downtown Detroit keeping its place as the financial center of the region would be a strong indicator that after a transit system holding the city’s neighborhoods together through the hard times there would be potential for a 80’s boom to start an early revival. New York and Chicago while much bigger cities had a big portion of their 80’s revival driven by finance. Detroit would likely lose some inner city population during the late 20th century and lose ground to sunbelt and western cities yet it would have a lot of strong assets to rebuild from as the far end of the 20th century saw.

Imo the city and region would be larger and better organized no question with that kind of transit system in place.

Originally Posted by benp

I agree with your observations. As I do not know all of Detroit very well, I really expected that there would be more "hidden" neighborhood commercial districts that I wasn't aware of, so it was very sobering and disappointing to look through the above list of neighborhoods and realize that that's all there are, and not much at that for many of them.

At least the commercial districts of inner suburbs (Dearborn, Highland Park, Hamtramck) can stand in for some of what's missing in adjacent central Detroit neighborhoods, though technically not part of "Detroit" itself.

I’ll quote the artist Black Milk when talking about Detroit / the Metropolitan area.

Let's talk about who's the most underestimated
Plus underrated city in this hip-hop game
Let's talk about
I don't know if these industry mofo's overlook us 'cause they might be afraid
They don't know if we get the spot like that
You might not get your spotlight back
For a couple decades
Let's talk about Auburn
A burn
Now it's De-twah's turn
Like Berry Gordy came back
Don't think about
Comparing us to another metropolitan area
Or anywhere on this globe

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0HY5r_4xrEA



The scene in Detroit was different to say the least coming up as a teen and young adult to say the least. In terms of what Detroit is missing people have always get creative when it comes to having a good time. But yeah outside of the Oakland County Woodward Corridor, Hamtramck & Ann Arbor pickings were slim besides concerts or knowing the right group of people before the revival of the city center.

I would say there are some hidden areas I’ve had some good times in Old Redford back in the day the alley and a covered patio area were turned to a really awesome space with videos playing on screens and light shows. As a matter of fact Detroit is all about hidden areas the blind pig is called the after hours nowadays I’ve been to “respectable” ones in all different areas of the city. Though a developed area more towards the edge of the core tend to be the spot. I went to a spot in northen New Center & one over by the Dequindre cut one the last time I was the mood but I’ve also been to ones in really random areas that looked if not abandoned painted up and padlocked when I walked out in the morning light.

The scene in Old Redford wasn’t like that there has been international artist colony that set up shop in the late 90’s and kept the area active through the recession before the neighborhood west of Lasher became a desirable place to live. There’s a big gap to bridge between Grand River in Farmington & a cool hangout spot like Old Redford & a Grand River in Rosedale that is moving towards a vibrant commercial district.

I picked out some photos and grabbed some locations on Google maps incase you or anyone is interested in checking out some of the changes in commercial Detroit.

Old Redford a book end to downtown Farmington along Grand River between suburb and city it also is at the northern end of Brightmoor which is centered at Lasher & Fenkell (5 mile). A lot of sold urban stock and some beautiful well kept neighborhoods but they border ones that were targeted for blight removal. 2024 is the year Brightmoor on the city’s list of blighted neighborhoods to revitalize.

https://theneighborhoods.org/neighborhoods/old-redford


https://thevendry.com/venue/64282/re...tre-detroit-mi


https://www.world-architects.com/en/...obama-building



https://100placesinthed.wordpress.co...etroit/page/3/


I grabbed some locations along Grand River to highlight the new development centered in North Rosedale Park. It’s south east of Old Redford there’s a big box Meijer development next door so it’s hard to say how things have measured out over all with the addition of proper amenities at the expense of small businesses development. The demolition of the blighted Redford High and addition of new retail development at McNichols & Grand River certainly saved a lot of historic street frontage in Old Redford. Though Platform (the Obama building developer) has yet to fully come through with their plans to redevelopment the NE corner of Lasher and Grand River.


https://maps.app.goo.gl/pds1aoEuuqhcUmav5?g_st=ic

Grand River in North Rosedale reminds me of a suburban downtown on the edge of the Oakland Woodward Corridor, more about the big homes than urbanity but still pretty nice. Though it still needs work to get to where it should be at but I think it’s on its way to greater density.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/j6SA7cEyCbLssK849?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/XNH6Tm3dJBGRwfit7?g_st=ic

New apartments
https://maps.app.goo.gl/gSyKxbMTa6XgCX1d7?g_st=ic

Glimpse of North Rosedale Park though the trees
https://maps.app.goo.gl/DBdeXzkxGCrghhvW9?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/AmdkeW3dfyPYXaba8?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/CmJp345nRuY7HCedA?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/mjHoM6F3WPzLhQfa7?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/95Uu7Y1SzpZtknj59?g_st=ic

Outer Drive
https://maps.app.goo.gl/xLuX2i193i7RLxKGA?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/HPMudvohFDmr9Lt48?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/9sYTz1V9g2A91R3H9?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/LDfpgcVFP47UHfZX8?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/pds1aoEuuqhcUmav5?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/pVYqwW6oZWTEqPmXA?g_st=ic



I love Hamtramck my moms family is Polish & they’re place was the get together spot for holidays someone would always get Kielbasa from the source, can’t forget Paczkis either. Cool scene too my girlfriend in college performed at Plant Ant comedy club she got a break with Second City back when it was in Novi & got a spot in Chicago. Had some good times there.

The Oakland Woodward Corridor definitely was and still is providing that critical mass of what Detroit is missing outside of the core. Though as soon as retail started returning to the core there was a big shift in where you wanted to spend your time and get a place. There’s still a scattered nature to life in Detroit the best entertainment is in the city during regular business & bar hours and after hours clubs. The Russell industrial center is another OG small hidden sort of live, work, shop & party space. There have been quite a lot of after hours spots that pop up in popular areas of the city. On one hand I like the informality on the other if you don’t know the organizers or who’s coming which is honestly going to be most of the time you can end up overcharged because some people take they run the place to its natural conclusion.

East Jefferson in the Rivertown / Warehouse district south of Lafayette & Elmwood Parks is probably the closest to reaching that critical mass of having a large urban corridor mostly intact. Known for having a strong nightlife scene, retail has been building up over the past 10 years after being interrupted by the recession. A lot of high-rise & high density living while being in a very attractive location on the water near Bell Isle.

West Village from a few floors up I believe.

https://www.bridgedetroit.com/consid...s-should-know/

Hidden retail hot spot West Village a part of the greater Indian Village - E Jefferson neighborhood. Van Dyke & Agnes.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/MTQxoG4rJnkGiv818?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/FhLpgh2Tkj7vAetC7?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/iBCBdbuHEe6hPD5y5?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZQi67YSGaGqmsw3q8?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/MJQJVaD4FCe925XQ8?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/2hKU7knBWUzNWtZu5?g_st=ic

E Jefferson is hitting that critical mass to support urban (big box) retail with the first Meijers opening in a core urban location in the city vs the suburban outer neighborhoods. If you don’t know of it their rival is Target (aim for a wealthier crowd than Wal-Mart but take what they can get.

Rivertown / Warehouse District & The Parks (Lafayette + Elmwood)

https://www.rockethomes.com/mi/detroit/condos

McDougall & E Jefferson. The Meijer near by, a midtown project stalled due to a hotel project stalling during Covid but I won’t be surprised if dense adjacent neighborhoods to downtown have an another period of strong retail growth in the next few years.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/58L7HkDHATfHwUyp6?g_st=ic


https://detroit.urbanize.city/post/n...east-jefferson

The Michigan Ave corridor in Corktown though Southwest has maintained an old school retail presence on W. Vernor for example and Mexican Town is acting as a center for immigration. W. Warren on the other side of the rail yard is a center for Arab & Middle Eastern immigration. The district is built much more densely than the rest of Detroit outside the core with more apartments & row homes. When Ford’s mobility & R&D campus has time to mature the young professionals along with the immigrants are likely to help this area reach critical mass.


https://www.forrent.com/find/MI/metr...oit/zips-48216

W Vernor - Springwells
https://maps.app.goo.gl/VvZpTnBuYdYKjc668?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/r4DFHDNDGRyKHqNk9?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/wQhRmz5JXVoRaQoD7?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/PqfbWNTBvYQp1Ecs6?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/yi9idc5GzoKJUGSZ7?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/S38QQNBgESRaA2HF6?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/8kmmJv3LJiq6mnWP7?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/5pZqqDjjYhF4TJdcA?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/u9vRbQ4U9GGND4H59?g_st=ic


https://maps.app.goo.gl/KLy7AjfN5XGCAkvaA?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/dmXHThCReBSX1FrX9?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/fPKP43dyUtLCKXN88?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/7Qfdz9v3HYCWUMWu8?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/ViNkAfdzStt1Wkd9A?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/JpEsMM4aoPqMhWbHA?g_st=ic

Entering Mexican Town
https://maps.app.goo.gl/nuJhaTcBh5rcLJXh9?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/MtFhgRZUVco4VNm49?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/FejhQD5FgSoi8Bos6?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/EJLReGEyi3zbEJA28?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/VusyGEUCPCoyacTU6?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/sUEznXChxw4YebWr7?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/wayFG5VH2WceXrGp7?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/CFfkSLKXBUxUKM7n6?g_st=ic

The center of Mexican Town it was like Greektown 20 years ago a couple blocks. The growth of the Mexican, Middle Eastern & Bengali communities have helped keep Detroit alive during the struggles with the bankruptcy. Mexican immigration has been a big reason SW Detroit has been the consistently growing outer neighborhood.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/xd2Ln8z6t79ADzTJ6?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/xyFdw6UUJJmqZGv78?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/ESdgquRkwMSLmz1Z7?g_st=ic

Though I believe that the Mack & E. Warren Corridor from Morningside through East English Village and particularly Cornerstone is perhaps just as close to becoming a truly well rounded neighborhood. Ie its retail corridors will become a truly healthy and vibrant one similar to Livernois between 8 mile and south of U of D. North Mack is Detroit South Mack is Grosse Pointe until Moross it’s a very nice street with vibrant retail & unique destinations such as the only Feather Bowling (and a bar) the only one in the US, a remnant the neighborhoods Belgian heritage.

There’s less contiguous street front retail on the Detroit side, though I could imagine that in the coming years parking lots will be removed or downsized to accommodate street front businesses. The area actually has been a later to stabilize neighborhood despite how the street would fit in most nice suburbs. The area saw its white population leave late so a generational and class change hit near the Great Recession. The area wasn’t an interest to people looking to move in because the black middle class that moved in were being victimized by crime that came with drugs. The area has had distressed blocks cleaned up and homes put through the land bank. But the majority of the area has high quality housing stock with a lot that has always been well kept with investment coming into as well.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/S2GmqUT5Ew3rA7Rq9?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/4s5fSpYWikzchqqH8?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/ebTC89oBDFGfkXSK8?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/TKLoLCNrYkodpaGX6?g_st=ic



https://maps.app.goo.gl/qRw2ye7n7ASRhzGp9?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/SCKWbFj4rp9FN4CSA?g_st=ic

While Grosse Pointe and Detroit have a famously bad relationship on the border of Jefferson Chalmers, Fox Creek neighborhood the residential section was an older neighborhood and built around a factory that closed. The infamous shots of the Alter Rd divide are from here, to the south there is a waterfront neighborhood called “The Canals” which as it sounds is Detroit’s “venice” a popular bootleger home. The abundance of homes with waterfront access and boat garages has kept a strong neighborhood south of Jefferson despite the vacancy to the north. Its central business district Jefferson - Chalmers is getting the works when it comes to redevelopment hoping to attract Grosse Pointe businesses and shoppers but also the local community. The Gold Coast and Berry Subdivision which houses the mayoral mansion is near by across from Bell Isle. It’s an interesting place to watch over the next 5-10 years, I visited a friend in a loft last year it was pretty nice.

One of the main blocks. Jefferson - Chalmers sits between the Gold Coast & Grosse Pointe on Jefferson Ave.

https://www.jeffersoneast.org/our-neighborhoods


https://www.priceypads.com/1923-bric...roit-michigan/


https://www.priceypads.com/1923-bric...roit-michigan/

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by bnk

Detroit does not have a heavy rail Metra system too BTW to flood the central business district with those that live in the Burbs.

Metra has a lot of say how the core of Chicago did not fall as other northern cities have.

Yeah, metra played a huge role in propping up the loop during the urban dark ages.

I'm not sure that metra directly saved many (any?) Chicago neighborhoods, but by helping to keep "the core" of the entire metro area literally in the core, it probably had knock-on effects of helping inner money neighborhoods like the gold coast and Lincoln Park weather the storm, instead of going full abandonment, which in turn was the catalyst for the great big blue blob of wealth to spring forth from in the gentrification era and gobble a huge chunk of the Northside.

Detroit had no such base of core wealth to build upon, as virtually all of the former core wealth had bolted for the burbs by the time some people with money were starting to say "hey the burbs are boring AF; maybe we should live in cities again."

[Wigs]

People always seem shocked when they discover Buffalo's central spine of wealth was able to hold on even as the city lost over half of its peak population.

Or that Buffalo had such nice neighborhoods and housing stock to begin with

In a city where the median sold price is currently ~$220k and Erie county ~$235k, these are high priced homes for the Western NY market, all in the city of Buffalo.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by bnk

Detroit does not have a heavy rail Metra system too BTW to flood the central business district with those that live in the Burbs.

Chicagoland is not just the El

Metra has a lot of say how the core of Chicago did not fall as other northern cities have. Don't discount Chicago's very extensive regional commuter rail system.

Detroit did have commuter rail until the early 1980s. But Detroit never had a rapid transit system to compliment the commuter rail.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Velvet_Highground

Imo the city and region would be larger and better organized no question with that kind of transit system in place.

Yeah, absolutely. The Detroit metro area isn't anchored around a geographical point anymore. But the original city was once anchored around the riverfront first, and then its railyards, and that accumulation of industry and people in a small geography is what fed the city's growth to become such a large city.

The point I've made about growth boundaries is that without an anchoring, growth boundaries (whether natural or artificial) are really the only way to stabilize development patterns and keep new development from cannibalizing older developed areas as population growth slows. Sun Belt cities are still growing fast enough so that this is not an issue yet, but it will absolutely become an issue for them without some intervention. All of the old industrial cities have dealt with some variation of the problem since the mid-20th century. Of the mid-century majors (NYC, Chicago, Philly, Los Angeles, Detroit), it seems without question that Detroit has handled that problem in the worst possible way.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Detroit did have commuter rail until the early 1980s.

yes, but SEMTA commuter rail in detroit consisted of a single 26 mile line from pontiac into downtown detroit with 11 stops and only 3 inbound trains in the morning and 4 outbound trains in the evening. exact stats are hard to track down, but according to wikipedia, back in '67 when the line was still directly operated by the grand trunk RR, average ridership was a pretty paltry 2,800/weekday.

that's a FAR cry from a comprehensive region-wide commuter rail system like chicago's Metra, with its 11 lines, nearly 500 miles of track, 242 stations, and an average ridership of ~150,000/weekday (closer to 300,000 in the before times).

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Of the mid-century majors (NYC, Chicago, Philly, Los Angeles, Detroit), it seems without question that Detroit has handled that problem in the worst possible way.

no argument there.

but detroit also got the double whammy of largely missing out (relatively speaking) on the huge influx of latino immigrants (mexican and/or carribean, depending on the city) that were instrumental in backfilling neighborhhods that were emptying out in those other cities.

detroit got a taste of it in SW detroit along vernor highway, but imagine if that had been 5X'ed to 10X'ed within the city proper. it'd be a very different city today.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

yes, but SEMTA commuter rail in detroit consisted of a single 26 mile line from pontiac into downtown detroit with 11 stops and only 3 inbound trains in the morning and 4 outbound trains in the evening. exact stats are hard to track down, but according to wikipedia, back in '67 when the line was still directly operated by the grand trunk RR, average ridership was a pretty paltry 2,800/weekday.

that's a FAR cry from a comprehensive region-wide commuter rail system like chicago's Metra, with its 11 lines, nearly 500 miles of track, 242 stations, and an average ridership of ~150,000/weekday (closer to 300,000 in the before times).

Yeah, that was the only route they were able to revive. I believe there were also lines from Mt. Clemens, Ann Arbor, Northville, and Wyandot into downtown Detroit's Fort Street station before SEMTA. SEMTA was supposed to eventually revive all of those routes but could not do it fast enough before it got defunded in the 1980s. However, most of this track is still there and Detroit could have a pretty comprehensive commuter rail system up and running in months if they could ever come to an agreement on funding it. Roughly a decade ago the state leased a bunch of railcars in anticipation of finally getting a commuter rail system off the ground. Those ended up just sitting and collecting dust because the funding proposals for the RTA kept getting voted down. They actually might still just be sitting in a railyard somewhere.

[Wigs]

Steely, in the 1983 classic 'Risky Business'
Which line would Tom Cruise's character had used to get to downtown by rail and how far from the loop would it be?

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Wigs

Steely, in the 1983 classic 'Risky Business'
Which line would Tom Cruise's character had used to get to downtown by rail and how far from the loop would it be?

The film was set in Glencoe, a north shore burb, so that would've been Metra's UP-N line, which travels from downtown all the way up the north lake shore to Kenosha, WI.

A trip from Glencoe to downtown takes about 40 minutes on a non-express UP-N train, roughly 20 miles as the crow flies.

[Wigs]

Thanks for the info!
Happy green river beer day

Also that's pretty amazing you can catch a commuter train all the way from Kenosha to the loop

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Wigs

Also that's pretty amazing you can catch a commuter train all the way from Kenosha to the loop

Yeah, Kenosha is way the hell up there, about 50 miles north of downtown.

But only a handful of trains each day actually make it all the way up to Kenosha on the UP-N line. Most trains on that route begin/end service at Waukegan, which is roughly 35 miles north of downtown.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by Wigs

Thanks for the info!
Happy green river beer day

Also that's pretty amazing you can catch a commuter train all the way from Kenosha to the loop

If Wisconsin ever gets its ass in gear about Kenosha-Racine-Milwaukee commuter service, then you'll be able go even farther (with a transfer).

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

If Wisconsin ever gets its ass in gear about Kenosha-Racine-Milwaukee commuter service, then you'll be able go even farther (with a transfer).

Resuscitating KRM commuter rail has been an on again off again idea for as long as this forum has existed.

Even though the tracks and most of the old stations are still there, I'm skeptical WI will ever find the operating funds to do it.

But CoachUSA does operate a pretty reasonably priced KRM commuter bus that syncs up with the Metra train schedule at Kenosha, so if you ever need to go from, say, Wilmette to Cudahy on transit, it's totally doable (but long).

[cabasse]

i used to work for a consulting firm based in milwaukee, and i recall some of my colleagues in chicago mentioning taking the hiawatha occasionally when they needed to be in the office for something. (i wonder if that's fairly common or would be considered too expensive)