Canada's Panamerica Identity

[Xelebes]

Alberta has a pretty weak ties across the border. That is, unless you are in cattle farming.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Southern Ontario has very weak ties to the parts of the US it borders. Toronto, Ottawa, London, etc. have very little in common with the Great Lakes states. .

I am not sure I would agree that they have very little in common, but you are right that when you cross the border from Ontario to Detroit or Buffalo, you are very clearly in "another place".

Detroit and Buffalo (and by extension Michigan and New York state) are very much part of the "core America", and so their focus is very predominantly away from the border. They're doin' stuff with and for the rest of the States.

Most other parts of the States that border Canada would be best described as "peripheral America", and that makes a difference when it comes to their focus. They tend to have a bit more time for Canada.

[Acajack]

So if healthcare is a big part of what defines Canada...

What happens if the U.S. continues on the Obamacare path and expands its public offerings even more, to the point where they end up with a fairly hybrid-public private system, and that because of the cash crunch Canada allows the private sector to play a greater role as well, leading a hybrid system here as well. And the two systems come to be reasonably similar (if not identical).

Will we still be Canadian?

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am not sure I would agree that they have very little in common, but you are right that when you cross the border from Ontario to Detroit or Buffalo, you are very clearly in "another place".

Obviously they have lots in common, I was speaking in relative terms

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Obviously they have lots in common, I was speaking in relative terms

You're correct that people in southern Ontario are less likely to say something like "the people across the border are pretty much people just like us".

You're much more likely to hear this from people along the border in Western Canada or Atlantic Canada. (Not from everyone, but it's a lot more common.)

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by lio45

Apparently also Alberta/Montana, it's being pointed out in a recurring manner in these threads.

(I'll defer to the experience of those who know better, as I've never been to Alberta; I've been to Montana and it was pretty much like I expected, and it was what I expect AB to be like too.)

In my opinion all the differences can be traced to the basic fact that the worth and appeal of Alberta-Montana land + climate are really really low in an American context yet decent in a Canadian one.

Also with the NW->SE way the fossil fuel deposits belt lies (AB-SK-ND), from that point of view one might say that ND is actually a better American "match" for AB than MT.

There is an approx 30 mile wide belt (15 miles on each side) on the 49th from the Lake of the Woods to the foothills (Minnesota, ND, Mont, MB, SK and AB) that there is alot of interaction. People owning land on either side, farming and ranching, marriage, sports, business, etc. I know of many people in SW Manitoba who would have their children born in ND so that they would have dual citizenship.
But once you got more than 15 to 20 miles north or south of the line the connections quickly disappear.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

There is an approx 30 mile wide belt (15 miles on each side) on the 49th from the Lake of the Woods to the foothills (Minnesota, ND, Mont, MB, SK and AB) that there is alot of interaction. People owning land on either side, farming and ranching, marriage, sports, business, etc. I know of many people in SW Manitoba who would have their children born in ND so that they would have dual citizenship.
But once you got more than 15 to 20 miles north or south of the line the connections quickly disappear.

Sounds like an extended version of Standstead, Quebec/Derby Line, Vermont.

[ue]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You're correct that people in southern Ontario are less likely to say something like "the people across the border are pretty much people just like us".

You're much more likely to hear this from people along the border in Western Canada or Atlantic Canada. (Not from everyone, but it's a lot more common.)

Not in Alberta. Montana and Alberta definitely feel different from one another. BC and Washington are a bit more similar; not sure about the states bordering Saskatchewan and Manitoba. Alberta's closest American analogue would be Colorado from a cultural perspective (economically it would be Texas).

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Other parts of Canada and Quebec share a familiarity that has a human side for sure but I would posit that much of the feeling of home between the two is primarily "administrative". There is no border, the currency is the same, there is Interac everywhere, there is Tim Hortons everywhere, product labelling is bilingual, you can get CBC and Radio-Canada everywhere, distances and speeds are in km, etc.

It should also be pointed out that all of the francophones on here are bilingual. Those who are not are likely to feel quite differently about such matters.

As for the unilingual anglophones on here who say they'd feel more at home in Chicoutimi than in Minneapolis, I think there is a certain form of "Canadianism" at play that leads them to believe that "language doesn't matter". Simply because it's the Canadian thing to say or feel. It's ingrained in their minds that language shouldn't be a dividing factor among Canadians, simply because that's always been one of the most divisive issues in this country.

Of course, saying it isn't so doesn't necessarily make it so.

Also, this "Canadianism" about language not mattering when it comes to feeling at home in a place isn't the way people anywhere else in the world see things.

It's a bit of custom-made meme just for Canada.

Ironically, a lot of the "language doesn't matter" crowd, who say they'd feel at home in French-only Chicoutimi (even if they are unilingual Anglo) would feel appalled at the sight of moderate amounts of Mandarin in Richmond, BC. Regardless of the fact that most of those Mandarin speakers would support Canadian universal health care.

Language doesn't matter if it's the right kind of language, spoken by the right kind of people...

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by lio45

Apparently also Alberta/Montana, it's being pointed out in a recurring manner in these threads.

(I'll defer to the experience of those who know better, as I've never been to Alberta; I've been to Montana and it was pretty much like I expected, and it was what I expect AB to be like too.)

In my opinion all the differences can be traced to the basic fact that the worth and appeal of Alberta-Montana land + climate are really really low in an American context yet decent in a Canadian one.

Also with the NW->SE way the fossil fuel deposits belt lies (AB-SK-ND), from that point of view one might say that ND is actually a better American "match" for AB than MT.

Very true. I mean, even the land adjacent to Southern Ontario and Quebec are rather low in value in the American context.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Acajack

So if healthcare is a big part of what defines Canada...

What happens if the U.S. continues on the Obamacare path and expands its public offerings even more, to the point where they end up with a fairly hybrid-public private system, and that because of the cash crunch Canada allows the private sector to play a greater role as well, leading a hybrid system here as well. And the two systems come to be reasonably similar (if not identical).

Will we still be Canadian?

I get what you're saying and I agree. But I'd like to point out that the US is already a very hybrid system. 1/3 of all Americans are covered by Medicaid and Medicare. By 2022, 1/2 of all Americans will be covered by Medicaid and Medicare. That means that more than 160 million people will be insured by the US government, thereby making the US government likely the largest public health insurer in the developed world.

But certainly, a big part of the projected increase is due to Obamacare, so there's that (although at least equally significant is that folks are getting older -- virtually everyone over 65 qualifies for Medicare). If the red states accept Medicaid expansion, it should increase to an even greater proportion.

[harls]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

There is an approx 30 mile wide belt (15 miles on each side) on the 49th from the Lake of the Woods to the foothills (Minnesota, ND, Mont, MB, SK and AB) that there is alot of interaction. People owning land on either side, farming and ranching, marriage, sports, business, etc. I know of many people in SW Manitoba who would have their children born in ND so that they would have dual citizenship.
But once you got more than 15 to 20 miles north or south of the line the connections quickly disappear.

That post just reminded me of this place...

https://goo.gl/maps/kpqFI

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by harls

That post just reminded me of this place...

https://goo.gl/maps/kpqFI

Ha! Lots of good stories started with this: "So! We were heading back from "The Bucket" and........

[lio45]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Ironically, a lot of the "language doesn't matter" crowd, who say they'd feel at home in French-only Chicoutimi (even if they are unilingual Anglo)...

It would be funny to ship them to North Korea. (I'm assuming they're even less fluent in Korean than in French.)

"Aaaaah, the unmistakable, sweet smell of socialized healthcare in the morning. Home sweet home!!!"

[harls]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

Ha! Lots of good stories started with this: "So! We were heading back from "The Bucket" and........

Haven't been there in a while, but the steak is still apparently awesome.

My best experience -

Bartender - "that'll be 2 bucks."

me - "um..Canadian or American?"

Bartender - "whatever. cooler is right there, help yourself."

Too bad the border closed early.. but it was a good thing if you knew the guy working that night and he didn't care about the two-four you smuggled back.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

There is an approx 30 mile wide belt (15 miles on each side) on the 49th from the Lake of the Woods to the foothills (Minnesota, ND, Mont, MB, SK and AB) that there is alot of interaction. People owning land on either side, farming and ranching, marriage, sports, business, etc. I know of many people in SW Manitoba who would have their children born in ND so that they would have dual citizenship.
But once you got more than 15 to 20 miles north or south of the line the connections quickly disappear.

There's a phenomenon like that in the Townships of Quebec as well with this "belt" (about the same width as the one you describe in MB!)

What's funny is that it happens in spite of language; nearly everyone on the Quebec side is bilingual, and on the US side the % of bilingualism is extremely high too for the US (probably higher than anywhere in Anglo Canada outside Northeast ON and Northern NB).

A few of the US Customs officers will even switch to French... something I don't think you'll ever see that at other crossings. (They're not required to, but I suppose the logic for them is, since they can, why not.)

[harls]

Originally Posted by lio45

There's a phenomenon like that in the Townships of Quebec as well with this "belt" (about the same width as the one you describe in MB!)

What's funny is that it happens in spite of language; nearly everyone on the Quebec side is bilingual, and on the US side the % of bilingualism is extremely high too for the US (probably higher than anywhere in Anglo Canada outside Northeast ON and Northern NB).

A few of the US Customs officers will even switch to French... something I don't think you'll ever see that at other crossings. (They're not required to, but I suppose the logic for them is, since they can, why not.)

Never had this happen, but I guess I look like an anglo when I wear a red sox cap all the time. Even with a car full of damn french people.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by lio45

It would be funny to ship them to North Korea. (I'm assuming they're even less fluent in Korean than in French.)

"Aaaaah, the unmistakable, sweet smell of socialized healthcare in the morning. Home sweet home!!!"

Quebec may be on the sketchy side, but a comparison to North Korea seems to go too far!

[lio45]

Originally Posted by harls

Never had this happen, but I guess I look like an anglo when I wear a red sox cap all the time. Even with a car full of damn french people.

Well, it's still statistically unlikely to happen... (I know that, I have a large sample to draw from...) but the mere fact that it *did* happen was already quite surprising. How often and where do you cross?

The crossing in this case was Beecher Falls, the one where all the guys are familiar with me. It's also possible that customs officers won't dare take the slightest step outside the boundaries of their strict duty (which among other things implies speaking English) unless they're familiar with their "client".

[harls]

This past summer I made a road trip on back roads through Maine and Vermont.. and there were quite a few dumpy towns.. but there were also a lot of very beautiful towns, and a lot of surprises - Bethlehem, New Hampshire.. I saw orthodox Jews walking the sidewalks; the caravan of bikers in Naples, Maine on route 302.. things like this I remember, more than the destination itself.