Hwy 99 Fraser River Tunnel (George Massey Replacement) | Proposed

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by DKaz

People really don't like being inside tunnels or something.

I wonder exactly how a bridge would be worse for wildlife in the area than a tunnel? Or whatever the reason was.

It seems to be a Lower Mainland (or Vancouver, anyway) syndrome. Whenever I mentioned putting in tunnels, for example entrance ways for entering/exiting a tunnel system already in place under downtown, or anything like that, people for the most part gagged and sreamed out against any tunnel system, except perhaps some cross-harbour thing to the North Shore.
Folks out here seem to put more trust in their bridges, it seems.

[proudcanuck]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

On the plus side of tunnels, I've never heard of anyone tying up traffic for a whole day by threatening to jump off a tunnel.

Yeah, the current tunnel gets closed due to bad accidents, but so do all the bridges. If a new tunnel was built with a little bit more vertical clearance on the inside then it would be easier to tow out the big rigs that wreck in there. The tunnel was built when the kinds of trucks we have today were unheard of.

And it is nice to have a few roads that dangerous goods can't go down, they tend to be some of the biggest, slowest trucks around.

Awesome point

[officedweller]

Tunnels are more claustrophobic than bridges and drivers tend to have a problem with vertigo when driving through them (due to proximity of the walls) - and slow down.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Tunnels are more claustrophobic than bridges and drivers tend to have a problem with vertigo when driving through them (due to proximity of the walls) - and slow down.

With the way many people speed in this province, especially over bridges, some might consider that a positive design feature.

[GlassCity]

An issue some people have brought up is having a giant bridge looming over Ladner, aesthetically. I guess a tunnel is much more quaint.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

An issue some people have brought up is having a giant bridge looming over Ladner, aesthetically. I guess a tunnel is much more quaint.

I dunno about tunnnels being quaint, but they're a lot more discreet-looking that giant concrete bridges.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

With the way many people speed in this province, especially over bridges, some might consider that a positive design feature.

How about... a tunnel bridge?



(Image from BlogTO)

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

On the plus side of tunnels, I've never heard of anyone tying up traffic for a whole day by threatening to jump off a tunnel.

Yeah, the current tunnel gets closed due to bad accidents, but so do all the bridges. If a new tunnel was built with a little bit more vertical clearance on the inside then it would be easier to tow out the big rigs that wreck in there. The tunnel was built when the kinds of trucks we have today were unheard of.

And it is nice to have a few roads that dangerous goods can't go down, they tend to be some of the biggest, slowest trucks around.

I did work in the freight forwarding industry awhile back out here and one pallet of fire extinguishers or what not that weights about 2000lbs (forget the limits) classifies the whole load as carrying dangerous goods, and the truck then can't use the Massey tunnel.

The whole dangerous goods thing is a real issue and more so in todays world then when the Massey tunnel was built. The transportation of goods is so much more dynamic and having a tunnel there and needing to go all the way to the Alex Fraser to cross the river is a real pain. People also waste time trying to plan the loads to make them not classified as carrying dangerous goods and people also lie about the weights which is a safety issue. Especially with the popular trend of going owner operator where freight shippers offload costs and risks on to their drivers and drivers have to take risks just to break even in many cases.

My point is that it is a significant enough issue that should be considered when making the decision to build a tunnel or bridge. (especially when this tunnel is next to a major west coast port)

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by cornholio

The whole dangerous goods thing is a real issue and more so in todays world then when the Massey tunnel was built.

That's actually a very good point, particularly when much of the justification for any increase in capacity will be based on increased volumes at Roberts Bank (although I understand that total traffic volume in the tunnel has actually declined over the past several years...).

[officedweller]

In my view, I suspect that the TDG issue is why tunnels were not seriously considered for the Upper Levels Highway or SFPR - when residents clamoured for tunnels. It's also why the Cassiar connector has a parallel above ground route via the ramps.

*****

I never did understand why CastleFrank had the tunnel bridge...

[Metro-One]

So why are there so many tunnels on the main highways in Europe and Japan?

[officedweller]

They have different regulations...

New tunnel rules to be introduced after high death toll
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/...duced-after-high-death-toll-7566220.html

[cornholio]

Since we are talking about dangerous goods here is the relevant regulation

B.C. Reg. 275/2006

M238/2006 Deposited October 17, 2006

Transportation Act
TUNNEL TRANSPORTATION

OF DANGEROUS GOODS REGULATION
Definitions
1 In this regulation:

"means of containment" has the same meaning as in the Transportation of Dangerous Goods Act, 1992 (Canada);

"means of transport" has the same meaning as in the Transportation of Dangerous Goods Act, 1992 (Canada);

"prohibited area" means

(a) the George Massey Tunnel, or
(b) the Cassiar Connector Tunnel.
Prohibited movement of dangerous goods
2 (1) A person must not transport any means of containment in a prohibited area at any time when section 4.15 of the Transportation of Dangerous Goods Regulations, SOR/2001-286, requires that a placard, within the meaning of that regulation, be displayed on the means of containment.

(2) Despite subsection (1), a person may transport a means of containment in a prohibited area at a time referred to in subsection (1) if
(a) the person does so in accordance with a written permit issued by the minister, and
(b) the permit is carried in the means of transport transporting the means of containment when it is in the prohibited area.
(3) The minister may issue a permit for the purposes of subsection (2) if the minister is satisfied that no suitable alternative route exists, and may impose any terms and conditions that the minister considers appropriate.
Note: this regulation repeals B.C. Reg. 174/70.

[Provisions of the Transportation Act, S.B.C. 2004, c. 44, relevant to the enactment of this regulation: section 90]

As for exemptions they are either 150kgs and under or 500kgs and under...usually the latter one for most DG's

Hope this helps. (I was a bit off with the 2000lbs thing, its actually around 1200 lbs for most dangerous goods. Either way with LTL (lighter then trailer loads) this does complicated things as it makes the delivery of many things difficult. Say the Rona needs a small shipment of spray paint weighing about 600kgs....well if the tunnel is in the way they either have to take a longer route, split the shipment between two loads or lie about the weight and fudge the numbers and say its only 500kgs (which is very common).

[huenthar]

Originally Posted by cornholio

Since we are talking about dangerous goods here is the relevant regulation



As for exemptions they are either 150kgs and under or 500kgs and under...usually the latter one for most DG's

Hope this helps. (I was a bit off with the 2000lbs thing, its actually around 1200 lbs for most dangerous goods. Either way with LTL (lighter then trailer loads) this does complicated things as it makes the delivery of many things difficult. Say the Rona needs a small shipment of spray paint weighing about 600kgs....well if the tunnel is in the way they either have to take a longer route, split the shipment between two loads or lie about the weight and fudge the numbers and say its only 500kgs (which is very common).

So... the "no dangerous goods through tunnels" is not actually a Transport Canada regulation? It's just a local rule applying to the two road tunnels in the region? Why does it exist then, was there ever an incident?

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by officedweller

In my view, I suspect that the TDG issue is why tunnels were not seriously considered for the Upper Levels Highway or SFPR - when residents clamoured for tunnels. It's also why the Cassiar connector has a parallel above ground route via the ramps.

The upper levels thing was just West Van nimbyism at its finest. There was zero need for a tunnel.

And I think it's somewhat erroneous to say that's why there are roads above Cassiar. The roads were there first, Cassiar was built later to get rid of a horribly congested Hwy 1/Hastings intersection.

Ironically, I often end up driving over the tunnel just to avoid traffic jams these days.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

So why are there so many tunnels on the main highways in Europe and Japan?

Japan has a population that generally follows safety levels more or less to the letter, so less slack room is required. That being said, they have rigorous standards of safety and maintenance on all their vehicles. Some of Europe is the same, especially in places like Germany. Most would agree that Europe in general has stricter requirements for driver licensing.

In the Black Forest (and I'd imagine all of Germany) if a road is in poor shape (pothole, not cleared of snow within a certain number of hours) and and accident happens, the local municipality must bear all costs of the accident. The reverse is also true, in general things like poor tread wear, unmaintained brakes or a bulb that is out will, in many cases, shift the blame into the driver who did not maintain his vehicle. As a result of this culture of responsibility, people are very careful to maintain their vehicles and municipalities are careful to maintain their roads.

As a result, bridges and tunnels can be operated closer to their actual design limits without the need to overregulate.

Due to Canada not being anywhere close to a monoculture, you never know how the operator will "interpret" the strictness of the regulation, so rules have to reflect this variation.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Japan has a population that generally follows safety levels more or less to the letter, so less slack room is required. That being said, they have rigorous standards of safety and maintenance on all their vehicles. Some of Europe is the same, especially in places like Germany. Most would agree that Europe in general has stricter requirements for driver licensing.

I wonder if statistics back that up... fewer accidents and/or fatalities per km driven or similar metrics.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

. Some of Europe is the same, especially in places like Germany. Most would agree that Europe in general has stricter requirements for driver licensing.

It's ironic; France has strict requirements for car licencing, and the visual test here is a series of Renoir-style images in which you have to find the key points. The cost of the driver's licence varies between (in $ CAD) $800 and $1200. Yet what people on the roads often get away with is unimaginable to most Canadians. It's murder-city here, especially on the bigger roads.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Pinion

And I think it's somewhat erroneous to say that's why there are roads above Cassiar. The roads were there first, Cassiar was built later to get rid of a horribly congested Hwy 1/Hastings intersection.

In addition to the diamond interchange at Hastings that allows TCH through traffic to come up and over to avoid the tunnel, I think there's a whole system of parallel roads to/from McGill (and the Port) that trucks can take to avoid going through the tunnel via the Hastings ramps and Bridgeway St. Otherwise, they could have connected Bridgeway north of the tunnel as part of the main McGill interchange.

http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=cassiar+tun...i=6VpsUaHCK8jSiwKq-IDoBw&ved=0CAsQ_AUoAg

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I wonder if statistics back that up... fewer accidents and/or fatalities per km driven or similar metrics.

It's not that I don't trust statistics, it's just that statistics can't be trusted. =)

Seriously, although I too would find it interesting to find out the stats, I suspect getting "similar" metrics would be extremely difficult. Adding culture in to the mix (which is an important consideration ) adds more complexity as well.

I find statistics are used often as a weapon to incapacitate common sense.