Rail-based Transit Discussion

[halifaxboyns]

I was thinking something along the lines of the Olympic Line for some sort of streetcar system.

Bombardier makes them - they have a video.

[Northend Guy]

Wasn't entirely sure which thread to put this is in, but I think this will generate some discussion here for sure!

New commuter road proposed
Black: Tear up rail tracks to Halifax core
By CLARE MELLOR Staff Reporter
Thu, May 19 - 7:29 AM
Halifax businessman Bill Black wants government to examine the possibility of a new commuter road for those trying to access or leave Halifax’s urban core.

"In a city our size . . . people who live in places like Sackville (shouldn’t be) taking an hour to get to work," Black told those attending a Halifax Club luncheon Wednesday.

He suggested the railway tracks that run from downtown Halifax to Bayers Road should be torn up and the rail cut paved for use by cars or buses, with an adjacent space for bicycle traffic.

"It would handle, at best, one lane each way. . . . The idea is to make very little change to the actual footprint of the real (rail) cut as it is."

The proposal, he said, would cost much less than a combined truck and rail route proposal that was studied in 2009.

The commuter road would not have intersections and would be accessed "at the Rotary and basically the bottom of the Bicentennial Highway," he said.

"This takes a lot of pressure off other routes into town."

Black’s proposal, published on his New Start Nova Scotia website, would involve buying Via Rail property. Just one passenger train and a cargo train use the south-end track each day, he said.

Black suggested that south-end lands associated with the rail yards and container terminal should become part of the downtown core. His plan entails getting rid of the container terminal near Point Pleasant Park by consolidating it with the one at Fairview Cove. "In my view, the prospects for the (Halifax) port, through no fault of the people who are running it, are very modest.

"All the traffic that we have today, in terms of the number of containers, can easily be handled in the Fairview Cove centre." Truck traffic in the downtown would be drastically reduced if the Halterm terminal near the park closes, Black said.

Getting rid of the "unsightly" Halifax grain elevators, also on Halifax Port Authority land, would also free up more valuable land, he said.

"We have this extraordinary valuable resource that is very, very seriously underemployed. . . . The other underemployed resource that we have is the rail cut," he said.

At least one person attending the lunch did not embrace Black’s idea of a commuter road.

"I look at Halifax and I think the last thing we need is another road in," one man said during a discussion that followed the talk.

"It is only going to encourage more people to live in the outskirts and to encourage more cars to be driving and commuting."

Contacted Wednesday, Coun. Sue Uteck (Northwest Arm-South End) said she has not seen Black’s proposal but the necessary expropriation of properties on peninsular Halifax to make way for such a project would make it unfeasible.

Coun. Jennifer Watts (Connaught-Quinpool) also hadn’t seen the proposal but said she also has concerns. "It would have a huge impact on existing homes in that district," she said.

"You need to look at the budget . . . the actual physical reality of being able to do that, and what (is) the impact on the existing housing stock in that area. Is that investment and actually bringing more cars into the downtown the direction that we really want to be putting our investment in?"


I for one see this proposal as a step in the wrong direction. If we were talking rail - that would be a different story. But it seems to be a step backwards to encourage more cars to make their way into the DT, where parking is already at a premium. Halifax really needs to get on board with a rail system - even a bare bones one that has a very linear route. If it is regular and reliable, people will use it!

[Wishblade]

Im actually pretty upset with councillor Watts. She votes down every development for the penninsula and then doesn't want any new traffic routes leading into the city from outlying areas. It's got to be one or the other. It's very obvious she's just anti growth altogether.

[dmac26]

I cant believe I am saying this, but I agree with the councillors. I don't think a commuter road is a good idea. If it was a mass transit corridor I could support it. I don't think the answer is more roads leading to the downtown core.

[halifaxboyns]

I think this guy is a nut bar, honestly. He's not thinking about the big picture, nor does he understand the importance and relationship of rail to the port.

While I agree with him in moving Halterm from near PPP (imagine the area as a totally mixed use area with a waterfront trail - I'm totally giddy at the the thought), putting it in Fairview won't work. Post Panamax ships can't get there even on low tide and considering that's what wants to call on here - moving Halterm hasn't been well thought out. Perhaps if it went over to Autoport area, then that could work since the depth is there and it's along the Dartmouth rail spur.

But ports need to be along both a major rail line and near good highway access. Fairview is well located and so is autoport.

But to tear up the rails makes NO sense. The worst decisions in terms of rails in the past 30 years has been to tear them up and not use them. That multi-use trail out to Bayer's Lake (that is a form rail line) to me was a big mistake. You could've made that a good commuter line to Tantallon to take traffic off the 103 by building a few sidings (so trains could pass each other), a couple terminals and a rail overpass over the 103 so the terminal could be near the Tantallon Shopping Centre.

Building more road capacity doesn't solve traffic problems. Plus how do cars get out of the rail cut to get to south street? What about robie? Or is it just you get on in Bedford and then can't get off until Hollis?

Regional Rail keeps being talked about; but let's not do it the cheap way. Let's really think about it and do it right. Don't use the BUDD cars, build nice stations and use good energy efficient trains. Order about 40 extra buses (in case of system break down) so that you can build good transit connections from a station at Mumford and at the train station and a schedule that works so that when the train pulls in - the buses leave 5 minutes after (the same at the end of the day). Then develop policy around the stations to encourage transit oriented development...put the people near the trains.

This could be a really good system that could end at HRM city limits for now but a route out to Windsor Junction could be expanded out to the Airport or to Truro if adjacent counties/towns wanted to help fund it.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

But to tear up the rails makes NO sense. The worst decisions in terms of rails in the past 30 years has been to tear them up and not use them. That multi-use trail out to Bayer's Lake (that is a form rail line) to me was a big mistake. You could've made that a good commuter line to Tantallon to take traffic off the 103 by building a few sidings (so trains could pass each other), a couple terminals and a rail overpass over the 103 so the terminal could be near the Tantallon Shopping Centre.

Building more road capacity doesn't solve traffic problems. Plus how do cars get out of the rail cut to get to south street? What about robie? Or is it just you get on in Bedford and then can't get off until Hollis?

Regional Rail keeps being talked about; but let's not do it the cheap way. Let's really think about it and do it right. Don't use the BUDD cars, build nice stations and use good energy efficient trains. Order about 40 extra buses (in case of system break down) so that you can build good transit connections from a station at Mumford and at the train station and a schedule that works so that when the train pulls in - the buses leave 5 minutes after (the same at the end of the day). Then develop policy around the stations to encourage transit oriented development...put the people near the trains.

This could be a really good system that could end at HRM city limits for now but a route out to Windsor Junction could be expanded out to the Airport or to Truro if adjacent counties/towns wanted to help fund it.

Yeah Black is out to lunch on this one. Tearing up those lines is the absolute worst thing that could be done, and is the total opposite direction that we should be moving in. A commuter line running from downtown through Mumford, Bedford, Sackville would be an awesome start to having an actual usable transit system in this city. Tearing it up to put a road in is as dumb as tearing it up for a walking trail.

[Waye Mason]

I suspect it would be equivalent or cheaper to build a new bridge, double the rail line and put in proper LRT than it would be to move the terminal and put in a road. I don't think you could put the terminal in Fairview, but maybe Woodside would be an option? Even there you would need a billion tons of fill to create the pier, and the railway would need to be totally upgraded.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

I suspect it would be equivalent or cheaper to build a new bridge, double the rail line and put in proper LRT than it would be to move the terminal and put in a road. I don't think you could put the terminal in Fairview, but maybe Woodside would be an option? Even there you would need a billion tons of fill to create the pier, and the railway would need to be totally upgraded.

The depth of the water around the autoport and former ultramar lands should be sufficient to deal with the issue of moving the terminal.

You would need lots of infill to build the docks though and would need to upgrade the rail line on the Dartmouth side.

If we build up the tax base and do things in small steps to eventually move towards moving the terminal in 15 years - we could do it. Just would have the costs spread out.

[halifaxboyns]

It appears I stand corrected on the depth by the autoport, as this map shows it's not very deep. So added to the challenge of moving the port - you'd also have to deal with dredging.

[musicman]

The Ceres terminal now handles post-panamax ships. That is why they put the 3 new green cranes in over the last few years.. From the size of ships out there now, from what i understand there are only 6 ships that could not use this terminal. But there will be more in the future. We need to think about the future, and Ceres terminal will be around for years to come. They will be servicing the not so new ships. And besides we are not seeing any ships in halifax right now that cannot get into the ceres terminal.

[halifaxboyns]

We were having this discussion in the general thread, but I thought I'd post this map here to move the conversation more to this thread - since it's probably most appropriate.

We were talking about the issue of an LRT/streetcar system and tunnels versus at grade and elevated.

I started working on a map LRT theoretical map to illustrate how several lines could be built using a variety of styles to suit the situation. This is by no means a complete map, as I deleted my old one to start again.

I'm going to start updating this one to include a couple ideas on streetcar lines and LRT lines, as I think the two could work in tandem.

I'd also enjoy some suggestions of connecting the lines to major employment/destination centres. The ones I've come up with so far (which are pretty obvious) are:

• Downtown Office Core (Halifax);
• Dalhousie University;
• St. Mary's University;
• Mount Saint Vincent University;
• QE2 Health Sciences Centre;
• HMCS Dockyard;
• HMSC Stadacona;
• Burnside/Dartmouth Crossing Area;
• Mic Mac Mall;
• Halifax Shopping Centre; and
• Bayers Lake

Here is my starting map - by no means complete. I've yet to add the streetcars, or other lines.

[someone123]

Is it necessary to make a distinction between LRT and streetcars? There are some types of light rail that can run either on their own track or in mixed traffic. Apparently another advantage is that you can just lay down track with minimal reinforcement without having things sink due to the weight.

In any city I think there's a huge advantage to standardizing rolling stock.

[MalcolmTucker]

Apparently another advantage is that you can just lay down track with minimal reinforcement without having things sink due to the weight.

Not really - even Portland's streetcars weigh around 29 tons. This is versus Calgary and Edmonton's light rail cars that weigh 41.5 tons.

You'd have to relocate any rigid utilities at minimum and unless you want closures of your system for every utility problem you'd make sure as little as possible of them sits under the acutal ROW.

The weight tradeoff raises interesting questions for hill climbing, I'd bet many roads in Halifax would be near the edge of the operating envelop.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Not really - even Portland's streetcars weigh around 29 tons. This is versus Calgary and Edmonton's light rail cars that weigh 41.5 tons.

You'd have to relocate any rigid utilities at minimum and unless you want closures of your system for every utility problem you'd make sure as little as possible of them sits under the acutal ROW.

The weight tradeoff raises interesting questions for hill climbing, I'd bet many roads in Halifax would be near the edge of the operating envelop.

I think further back in this thread I loaded information on a few of the bombardier flexity streetcars and the grades they could operate at. As I recall, the ones used in Vancouver for the 2010 Olympics could operate at a pretty steep grade. The LRT trains (like Calgary's) I'm not so sure off.

Further to your question Someone123 in the general thread, one of my friends at Calgary Transit sent me this website that compares LRT and subway. I'm not sure how much you would have to mark up the costs for building tunnels here, I'd say at least 15 to 20%, given the rocks.

Portland had to reinforce all the tracks because unlike the streetcar, the LRT trains were heavy - so they had to be able to take either a streetcar or their light rail train. But it rarely works that way.

[pblaauw]

Just a quick thanks to halifaxboyns for taking this from the General thread. I forgot about this thread, which is where my post should have gone.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by pblaauw

Just a quick thanks to halifaxboyns for taking this from the General thread. I forgot about this thread, which is where my post should have gone.

No worries - we all tend to wander off into other thoughts in other threads - it happens all the time!

[MonctonRad]

Now here's a paradigm shift for you....

How about building the replacement for Halterm on the west facing shoreline of McNab's Island. The water depths there are pretty good. You wouldn't have to worry about too many NIMBY's and it is just a short hop by a potential bridge over the Eastern Passage to the Woodside area of Dartmouth. It could easily be connected to the rail line on the Dartmouth side.



The current Halterm then could be redeveloped for mixed commercial and residential. The cruise ship facility could be expanded. Valuable downtown waterfront property could be repurposed. The rail cut could be given over to rail based transit direct to the downtown core and everyone would live happily ever after!

BTW - this is a semi-serious proposal. I do know that there is a constituency in Halifax that values the idea of a wilderness area at the mouth of the harbour, but a container pier on the island wouldn't necessarily destroy this concept. A large container port probably wouldn't occupy more than 20% of the island. The rest of the island could be given over to parkland and a conservancy area. With a road bridge to the island over the Eastern Passage, public access to the island for recreational purposes would be significantly enhanced. It's a win-win proposition!

Comments anyone........

[-Harlington-]

Theres a friends of everything these days, including Mcnab's Island

I always thought some small development of some sort could work on the island but after seeing the friends of everything else in Halifax i never thought it would fly .

Im sure theres some room around Burnside or somewhere along the mouth of the harbour but we gotta remember what city this is

Unfortunately the people of this website do not run the city .

[halifaxboyns]

Its an interesting idea. Taking aside the special interest groups that would block it because of the fact it would 'destroy' the island, something tells me there might be legislation that would have to change to allow this to happen.

With the exception of legislation - you'd then have to deal with getting the containers and vehicles on and off the island. Considering that both sides of the Island are used as vessel passages, you would probably be unable to do a bridge, unless it could raise. The shortest distance would be to the Dartmouth side - but you would also need a rail connection which is available on the Dartmouth side.

So assuming you could build a raising bridge (with rail connection) - you could do it from Dartmouth. I'm not sure how well it would go over. I'd think you would almost be better off just buying up all the land below Highway 322 by Shearwater and build the dock there - it would probably be cheaper since you wouldn't have to build a bridge or tunnel.

[halifaxboyns]

I finally finished adding all the routes, including streetcar. I always believe that a good system is about connectivity - so that many modes interconnect. Here is the map.

I've create 3 main LRT routes: Blue Line would be build initially from Mumford to either Mic Mac or Dartmouth Crossing. It could then be extended in stages up to Lacewood Terminal (shown on the map) or to the Residential community planned north of Dartmouth Crossing (not shown).

The Red Line is about serving Universities - so it runs from MSVU to St. Marys - while servicing Stadacona and Gottingen Street as a way to encourage density. It shares the downtown 'tunnel' - then goes out the other end to the train station to St. Mary's. The idea of stopping at the train station is to allow for a regional rail system in the future that could serve the deeper suburbs or Bedford and Upper Sackville. The Red line could be extended along the Basin up to Mill Cove, assuming the infill island is built but would require either elevated guideways or additional infill along the coast to build the track.

There is the Green Line which is about a Dartmouth Crossfeed. It would start from Portland Hills and initially end at Akerley - with a transfer station at the Bridge Terminal. This line would also potentially serve Shannon Park if there was a stadium. This line could be extended in the future down Portland to the end of the Forrest Hills Parkway and in the opposite direction out to Bedford, ending at the Cobequid Terminal.

There are 4 streetcar routes: The first serving NSIT and the North End, down Agricola through downtown and Pier 21 as a loop route. The second would be a loop route from Mumford along Windsor, sharing the same routing in and out of the downtown, but breaking off at Morris and then going onto University to loop at the end to service Dalhousie - then back up University/Morris to the common route outbound on Lower Water. The third route is in Dartmouth would service Wallace Heights/Shannon Park redevelopment, Dartmouth downtown and Woodside Terminal in one large loop - with connections at the Bridge Terminal. This route makes some assumptions about any Shannon Park redevelopment (that there would be a loop road similar to the Commonwealth games diagram, but I would hope for residential on on the coastal edge). The last route starts at the Bridge Terminal and goes through Highfield Park to Burnside and Dartmouth Crossing.

The main focus of these routes was to put some of the streetcars through some areas where density could be improved and the area regenerated (Shannon Park, Wallace Heights, Agricola Corridor, parts of the North End, Highfield Park) and also to do the same with the LRT (Gottingen Street and Quinpool Road corridor). Love to hear people's thoughts - as I'm totally open to changing this.