What is it like to come home to Canada?

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Acajack

What if all those definitional projects are simply bringing Toronto up to the level it should have been when it had a million fewer people, and the GTA several million fewer?

This isn't a particular slag on Toronto: tons of places in Canada are in the same boat.

Sure we've got stuff being built, but are we setting ourselves up for 2025 or simply catching up to where we should have already been in 1998?

We're definitely catching up.

Just based on the timescales of planning and building megaprojects, everything that has shovels in the ground in Toronto was conceived at least ten years ago, in some form or the other. These projects reflect the problems planners identified at that time.

None of the projects that are even in the early planning stages reflect the Toronto of Trudeau-era immigration levels.

[niwell]

RE: Cabbagetown from km's comments above. It really seems like it's a neighbourhood that's beginning to feel a lot of the issues going on in Toronto right now it's been historically shielded from. It's a place that's established/fairly wealthy in very close proximity to the areas where things are most acute - this has always been the case to a degree but things are beginning to spill over. It's a bit of a canary in the coalmine - I was a bit surprised biking through recently and seeing private security patrols. Echoing the point above, I don't feel uneasy at all anywhere in the area but I'd be hesitant to raise a child there right now. Riverdale across the Don is a different story. Even Parkdale - which has always had a large low-income population feels more integrated and easy-going (though I have some crazy stories from friends who own businesses there).

[niwell]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

We're definitely catching up.

Just based on the timescales of planning and building megaprojects, everything that has shovels in the ground in Toronto was conceived at least ten years ago, in some form or the other. These projects reflect the problems planners identified at that time.

None of the projects that are even in the early planning stages reflect the Toronto of Trudeau-era immigration levels.

Agreed. If one could wave a magic wand and finishing everything under construction right now immediately I think it would be adequate. If we keep growing at the current pace however...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

We're definitely catching up.

Just based on the timescales of planning and building megaprojects, everything that has shovels in the ground in Toronto was conceived at least ten years ago, in some form or the other. These projects reflect the problems planners identified at that time.

None of the projects that are even in the early planning stages reflect the Toronto of Trudeau-era immigration levels.

So far we're also barely reducing the intake levels, in spite of all the controversy over them.

And once the real decision is actually made to have a lot fewer people coming in, it's going to take some time to turn the Titanic around and for the new policy direction to have any type of impact on the housing market and public services.

As we write this, water is still coming into the bottom of the rowboat.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

For what it's worth, both Swedish people and Canadians seem to be of the general view that times aren't good. When I told my barber that I was thinking of moving to Toronto, he said "it's a good time to get out". When I told my brother, who lives in Toronto, he said "don't...it's not a good city anymore".

Have you considered Montreal if Toronto is as your brother says: "not a good city anymore" ?

Imho, it doesn't suffer from "We are only a city for people with money" 2020s vibes like Toronto (those that are grandfathered into rentals or bought for purchase housing decades ago notwithstanding)

[kool maudit]

I did consider it, but after nearly 30 years outside, I would prefer to be in an English-speaking place again. That's a part of the homecoming aspect. Also, I work with banks and securities exchanges. Toronto has all that.

But I agree that Montreal is healthier on some key metrics.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by niwell

RE: Cabbagetown from km's comments above. It really seems like it's a neighbourhood that's beginning to feel a lot of the issues going on in Toronto right now it's been historically shielded from.

Cabbagetown is almost uniquely cornered in this sense. I like it there and would like to be close to my sister and her family, but I had already determined that would at least be on the other side of the ravine.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I did consider it, but after nearly 30 years outside, I would prefer to be in an English-speaking place again. That's a part of the homecoming aspect. Also, I work with banks and securities exchanges. Toronto has all that.

Despite Brexit beating it down, the opportunities in the finance sector are still substantially better in London than Toronto. Speaking of which, Toronto is going through a year-long IPO drought at the moment.

NYC or Sydney would be more optimistic Anglo GFCs to work in.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Though my recollection is also that a lot fewer people were souring on Canada not that long ago. Even those who were 57 at the time.

Concur with your recollection. I've been doing regular visits to my alma mater as part of their initiative to connect alum with students, and these two years I've noticed the students have soured significantly on Canada. The majority are now desperately trying to find career pathways to the US (if they don't get hired by a US MNC right away), and seeing how recent graduates who stayed in Toronto fared reinforces their urgency.

Even amongst younger denizens of downtown Toronto, it's quite common to see former Trudeau fanboys bash Justin openly during social events. Haven't noticed the same on the Island, who surprisingly are more optimistic about Canada.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I did consider it, but after nearly 30 years outside, I would prefer to be in an English-speaking place again. That's a part of the homecoming aspect. Also, I work with banks and securities exchanges. Toronto has all that.

But I agree that Montreal is healthier on some key metrics.

Occupation/industry aside, for raising a family Calgary is one of the best places in Canada. Many forumers may not realize this. Edmonton too (although suffers from more public nuisance issues). Salaries are really good if one finds employment in their field.

Not sure about 2024 but the public schools were some of the best in Canada, excellent public library system with an amazing central library, tons of parks, trails in the city with 2 rivers. Family "leisure centres" owned by the city that have indoor waterparks. Inner city neighborhoods just across the Bow river like Sunnyside and Hillhurst/West Hillhurst are great among a bunch of others.

Close to all that the Rocky Mountains offers. This cannot be overstated. I love the Great Lakes but miss the Rockies a lot.

Newer hospitals (although Toronto ones rank the best in Canada, Alberta Children's hospital is still highly ranked and South Campus hospital near O-tacular is pretty new. Foothills hospital is ever expanding).
Has become very multicultural, with the city's now 2nd South Asian Mayor so your kids being exposed to many cultures (unlike Sweden where the concept is new), everyone coexisting peacefully, not to mention easy finding good eats from a wide variety of cuisines.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

What if all those definitional projects are simply bringing Toronto up to the level it should have been when it had a million fewer people, and the GTA several million fewer?

This isn't a particular slag on Toronto: tons of places in Canada are in the same boat.

Sure we've got stuff being built, but are we setting ourselves up for 2025 or simply catching up to where we should have already been in 1998?

The difference is that this infrastructure lag in Toronto has the potential to kill the Canadian economy and send the country into a self-reinforcing downward economic spiral by permanently hampering its competitiveness.

[Harrison]

Originally Posted by Wigs

Occupation/industry aside, for raising a family Calgary is one of the best places in Canada. Many forumers may not realize this. Edmonton too (although suffers from more public nuisance issues). Salaries are really good if one finds employment in their field.

Not sure about 2024 but the public schools were some of the best in Canada, excellent public library system with an amazing central library, tons of parks, trails in the city with 2 rivers. Family "leisure centres" owned by the city that have indoor waterparks. Inner city neighborhoods just across the Bow river like Sunnyside and West Hillhurst are great among a bunch of others.

Close to all that the Rocky Mountains offers. This cannot be overstated. I love the Great Lakes but miss the Rockies a lot.

Newer hospitals (although Toronto ones rank the best in Canada, Alberta Children's hospital is still highly ranked and South Campus hospital near O-tacular is pretty new. Foothills hospital is ever expanding).
Has become very multicultural, with the city's now 2nd South Asian Mayor so your kids being exposed to many cultures (unlike Sweden where the concept is new), everyone coexisting peacefully, not to mention easy finding good eats from a wide variety of cuisines.

Agreed, I'd say most of this relates to Edmonton as well. There are tons of things to do for families here and with a great school system, library system, recreation centre network, etc. it's a fantastic place to grow up.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Wigs

Occupation/industry aside, for raising a family Calgary is one of the best places in Canada. Many forumers may not realize this. Edmonton too (although suffers from more public nuisance issues). Salaries are really good if one finds employment in their field.

Not sure about 2024 but the public schools were some of the best in Canada, excellent public library system with an amazing central library, tons of parks, trails in the city with 2 rivers. Family "leisure centres" owned by the city that have indoor waterparks. Inner city neighborhoods just across the Bow river like Sunnyside and West Hillhurst are great among a bunch of others.

Close to all that the Rocky Mountains offers. This cannot be overstated. I love the Great Lakes but miss the Rockies a lot.

Newer hospitals (although Toronto ones rank the best in Canada, Alberta Children's hospital is still highly ranked and South Campus hospital near O-tacular is pretty new. Foothills hospital is ever expanding).
Has become very multicultural, with the city's now 2nd South Asian Mayor so your kids being exposed to many cultures (unlike Sweden where the concept is new), everyone coexisting peacefully, not to mention easy finding good eats from a wide variety of cuisines.

Excellent points. Ottawa is also pretty decent as well, though I know Kool isn't a fan and I'd say it's not a functional as Calgary is and is slowly declining in this respect - though that has good and bad sides as Calgary has less charm and character.

I wonder how these two compare to, say... Göteborg?

[giallo]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Even amongst younger denizens of downtown Toronto, it's quite common to see former Trudeau fanboys bash Justin openly during social events. Haven't noticed the same on the Island, who surprisingly are more optimistic about Canada.

I've noticed this too. The man is not very popular with anyone these days. I was never a fanboy, but I was hopeful for him and the Liberals after Harper's second term. Now I just want change. PP will be given the reigns, and I truly hope he takes the job and his responsibilities to serve seriously. I'm not very hopeful though.

As for Trudeau, I like this comparison:

When you're eight years old, and your babysitter is nine years old - that's what the Trudeau government feels like.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I did consider it, but after nearly 30 years outside, I would prefer to be in an English-speaking place again. That's a part of the homecoming aspect. Also, I work with banks and securities exchanges. Toronto has all that.

But I agree that Montreal is healthier on some key metrics.

Montreal has its problems of course but they're mostly the classic Montreal problems that are always there or at least bubble up to the surface from time to time and never truly go away.

It doesn't have very many of these newish problems that you're seeing in a lot of other North American cities that are unsettling to people à la "nothing like this used to happen in our city before!"

I find a lot of the current gripes about Toronto are related to the uncomfortable and relatively sudden transition (collapse?) from Toronto The Good and New York Run by the Swiss to, well, something else.

Montrealers have never had that kind of conception of their city I don't think.

[kool maudit]

Montreal has been the site of some history with a capital H, and has endured some rough times.

[giallo]

I think Canada is quietly suffering a major identity crisis. For so long, our internal national identity has always been that of an anti-USA in the Americas. Sure, the US has more opportunities and is the cultural capital of the world, but we have free healthcare, safe cities, good schools and no guns.

The erosion of those core institutions and values that we held up so proudly as a nation is probably going to leave a lot of us asking; What are we as a nation and what do we collectively stand for?

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Excellent points. Ottawa is also pretty decent as well, though I know Kool isn't a fan and I'd say it's not a functional as Calgary is and is slowly declining in this respect - though that has good and bad sides as Calgary has less charm and character.

Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa-Gatineau are all great places to raise a family.
Québec City and Winnipeg too although Winnipeg has always unfortunately been Canada's whipping post, for my entire life anyway. But it has lovely tree lined streets and more affordable housing.

Calgary just feels bigger city than both Ottawa and Edmonton. The topography with many vantage points of the city's dense skyline with more office space (downtown and total) than Vancouver helps. There's always residential high-rises under construction downtown/Beltline and in other parts of the city too. From what I can tell Ottawa is undergoing a high-rise residential boom currently.

The amount of infill almost anywhere within say a 4 or 5-ish km radius of downtown Calgary is impressive. Semi detached replacing SFH, 4-6 storey apartments/condos rising up in long existing neighbourhoods (by Calgary not Quebec standards ). New subdivisions are a heckuva lot more dense than even 20-25 years ago even if the layout/built form needs work.

Calgary having the best light rail transit system of the 3, and a pretty good bus system helps as well. After the oil crash then pandemic induced transit exodus, CTrain ridership as of Q3-2023 is back up to over 250,000/day (~320,000 is where it should be if downtown offices were humming again). Edmonton's ETS rail transit was about 75,000 and Ottawa's O-Train about 50,000-60,000. Edmonton's always had a solid bus network, not sure about Ottawa's.

Long winded way to say our 4th, 5th, 6th largest Metros are doing alright

[Acajack]

Not sure I can quantify Edmonton and Calgary precisely, but central Ottawa feels about the same as Montreal in terms of sketchiness these days. (This isn't so good for Ottawa as Montreal is way bigger and also poorer.)

Both Ottawa and Montreal feel like they're about one level below Toronto in terms of sketchiness.

[urbandreamer]

Ottawa is much nicer than Calgary or Edmonton, and location is better too. I wouldn't move to the city, but rather the countryside between Cornwall, Ottawa and Quebec.

I wonder if Kool Maudit actually saw the nice parts of Toronto, like Summerhill, Roncesvalles High Park, the Junction, Oakwood St Clair, Rosedale, Davisville? I even like the 1950s/60s suburbs around Weston, Keele and Sheppard etc.

Or consider Caledon, Mulmur, Guelph or Fergus areas.

Anyway, Ontario is huge and there's so much beyond Toronto.