What midwestern city seems most “urban” to you (except Chicago)?

[The North One]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I'd add the Michigan Science Center and the Charles H. Wright Museum of African American History. Then there are a few second rate museums/attractions like the Belle Isle Aquarium, Detroit Historical Museum, Ford Piquette Factory, etc.

Yeah, there's too many to list honestly. I don't get why Ohioans are so viciously offended right now lol. Cleveland has great cultural institutions, Detroit just clearly has more. Don't come in here saying Henry Ford is an auto museum, you just look foolish and clearly aren't aware of what is here.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by The North One

Yeah, there's too many to list honestly. I don't get why Ohioans are so viciously offended right now lol. Cleveland has great cultural institutions, Detroit just clearly has more. Don't come in here saying Henry Ford is an auto museum, you just look foolish and clearly aren't aware of what is here.

yeah, umm because they just dont have stuff for kids like a science museum and natural history museum in cle. its a wash boddy.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by The North One

Uh yes, 100%. Without a doubt. DIA is in the middle of Midtown in a very walkable setting. Cleveland Museum is the opposite.

Not... really...

https://goo.gl/maps/WixNoMAj4RwKyB7x9

https://goo.gl/maps/1MFWC87G7TMpeMhS7

You can even see donut lines in this one:
https://goo.gl/maps/YWKJmfTwitWadfzT7

And then there's this:
https://goo.gl/maps/cQDZGoVpRFW3dVWC7

[ChiSoxRox]

The Toledo War never dies.

[Steely Dan]

^ and Toledo has a very highly regarded art museum as well.

Perhaps even better than Detroit's or Cleveland's?


FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!

[edale]

Someone from Detroit playing the google streetview game...that's a bold move. Careful with that.

University Circle is far less autocentric than basically anything in Detroit. Detroit has as much rail in the ground as Cincinnati-- a small streetcar line. Meanwhile, Cleveland has two light rail lines, a heavy rail line that serves the airport, downtown, and University Circle, and multiple BRT lines. Here's the recently redone Little Italy/University Circle Rapid station, which is about a 10-15 min walk from the art museum:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5086...7i16384!8i8192


A quick Google of "best art museums in the US" yields these lists. Each lists Cleveland above Detroit:
https://www.timeout.com/usa/things-t...ums-in-america
https://www.tripsavvy.com/top-art-mu...states-3301103
https://www.ranker.com/list/best-art.../admiralcrunch

There is a pretty commonly known "Big 5" of US orchestras. They are New York, Boston, Chicago, Philadelphia, and Cleveland. Check the wiki page for yourself:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_(orchestras)

Considering it's a substantially larger city/metro than Cleveland, it's somewhat embarrassing how Detroit under performs in these cultural metrics.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by ChiSoxRox

The Toledo War never dies.

I laughed.

[homebucket]

The battle for control of the Maumee is real.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by homebucket

Not... really...

https://goo.gl/maps/WixNoMAj4RwKyB7x9

https://goo.gl/maps/1MFWC87G7TMpeMhS7

You can even see donut lines in this one:
https://goo.gl/maps/YWKJmfTwitWadfzT7

And then there's this:
https://goo.gl/maps/cQDZGoVpRFW3dVWC7

Henry Ford & Greenfield Village are located in unapologetically suburban locations. That was deliberate. The DIA is designed to be walkable. The surface parking lots are retrofits.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

The surface parking lots are retrofits.

I agree the DIA neighborhood is walkable, but it isn't really walker-friendly. Like you can walk in every direction, no problem, but it wouldn't be particularly pleasant in any direction. Not dangerous, just not much for pedestrians.

It does piss me off the that Detroit region is so autocentric that the Woodward-facing entrances of the art museum and library are now the "back doors", and the main entrances now face the rear parking lots. This is also true of many of the grand churches in Midtown, like the Episcopal Cathedral.

And it isn't like I'm expecting suburbanites to take transit. The DIA built a parking garage beneath the museum in the 1950's, but let it deteriorate, and now it sits empty. So instead of nearby building fabric, you get the parking lot moonscapes.

In any case, this is silly conversation. Cleveland and Detroit are both roughly equivalent high culture heavyweights.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by goat314

The South is America's largest and most diverse region. Not all the South is the same at all.

It was all agricultural with very few large cities for 250 years and STILL votes exactly the same way as a bloc since the 1870s.

So how you figure that it is not the same at all?

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Yes, of course there are differences between different cities, but when we compare St. Louis to Cleveland, there's still some Midwest generalities shared between them even though the houses look different; they're not as earth-shatteringly divergent from each other like, say, Stockholm and Dhaka.

But St. Louis and Cleveland are much more different from each other than say, NYC and Philadelphia and Boston and Baltimore are from each other.

Syracuse and Springfield... Detroit and Wichita?

Portland and Providence... Duluth and Evansville?

[Steely Dan]

Buffalo and Baltimore.... Columbus and Indianapolis?

Portland and Erie.... Fort Wayne and Green Bay?

Boston and Baltimore feel pretty damn different to me, about as different as St. Louis and Cleveland IMO.

Also love how St. Louis' world-class legacy/cultural institutions are consistently left out of these conversations about best in the Midwest. Botanical Garden (top 3 in the world), Zoo (top 3 in the US), Art Museum, Contemporary Art Museum, Pulitzer Foundation for the Arts, Symphony Orchestra (second oldest in the US), Municipal Theater (oldest outdoor theater in the US), Black Rep Theater (in general the theater scene is top notch), Circus Flora (yes, we have our own circus that trains people from all over the wold in circus arts), Science Center, Forest Park and the rest of the park system, the public library system, National Building Arts Center, Laumier Sculpture Park, etc. St. Louis' cultural institutions are every bit as diverse and distinguished as anywhere else in the Midwest.

[MPLS_Const_Watch]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

They'll write 9 goddamn paragraphs about how Cincinnati is so completely different from Minneapolis in every single last possible conceivable way, as though Tokyo was being compared with the 7th moon of Neptune.

If only you had the foresight to say Cleveland and Detroit!


I think the conversations are great, just think it's funny when it seems like people are taking it a bit too seriously and might be starting to a difference of opinion about their city a little personally.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Buffalo and Baltimore.... Columbus and Indianapolis?

Portland and Erie.... Fort Wayne and Green Bay?

I get it, but Buffalo and Baltimore are not in the same region, to me at least. I wouldn’t paint them with the same broad descriptor. Same for Erie and Portland.

Yes, they’re all in the geographic Northeast. That’s a factual statement because the Northeast is an actual locational / directional term. I specifically chose East Coast examples and interior examples within the northeast to show the difference. Very few people would paint Philly and Rochester with the same brush. Philly is East Coast, Rochester is not.

You can’t say the same for the Midwest… completely arbitrary, in any sense. Yet, Midwest will be hung on Duluth, Evansville, Omaha, Detroit… and maybe even Buffalo, Rochester, and Pittsburgh as if it’s defining terminology for all.

[Crawford]

I'd argue that the Appalachians are a pretty major cultural divide, and places like Duluth and Evansville, while indeed different, have more in common than places on other side of the Appalachian divide.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I'd argue that the Appalachians are a pretty major cultural divide, and places like Duluth and Evansville, while indeed different, have more in common than places on other side of the Appalachian divide.

In some cases, sure… though having grown up in Pennsylvania (which is THE location to exemplify what you’re suggesting), I actually see a significantly greater cultural difference north vs. south in the state than I do east vs. west, i.e., one side of the Appalachians vs the other side. The northern tier of PA is exactly like the southern tier of NY, while the southern half of PA is much older, the progeny of Philly and Baltimore. As examples, Pittsburgh, Harrisburg, Lancaster, York, etc. are all much more like Philly than they are like cities even 50 miles to their north; Scranton-WB is more like Erie than it is like the Lehigh Valley or Reading.

Duluth and Evansville are quite an odd couple though as Midwestern though, wouldn’t you say? Duluth is Canadian and Evansville flies under the Confederate flag.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by IWant2BeInSTL

Boston and Baltimore feel pretty damn different to me, about as different as St. Louis and Cleveland IMO.

Stop it. I can’t even relate to you as a human if you truly believe this.

Boston and Baltimore are Yankee and Midlands versions of the same city.

St. Louis and Cleveland… Seriously? They’re not even on the same planet, relatively speaking.

What color is the sky in your world?

[goat314]

Originally Posted by pj3000

It was all agricultural with very few large cities for 250 years and STILL votes exactly the same way as a bloc since the 1870s.

So how you figure that it is not the same at all?



But St. Louis and Cleveland are much more different from each other than say, NYC and Philadelphia and Boston and Baltimore are from each other.

Syracuse and Springfield... Detroit and Wichita?

Portland and Providence... Duluth and Evansville?

Yes, the census designated region called "The South" is the largest and most diverse region in the United States.

Boston and Baltimore are very culturally and aesthetically different. In all honesty though if I were to compare Baltimore, St. Louis, Cleveland, and Boston. I would say that Boston would be the clear outlier. For one, Baltimore, St. Louis, and Cleveland are essentially working class, African-American cities at their core. Baltimore and St. Louis are both border cities, brick cities, have HBCUs, world renowned medical centers, independent cities, struggle with violence and segregation. St. Louis is essentially a Midwestern version of Baltimore. I think Cleveland and Boston are more aesthetically similar, Cleveland's architecture is defintely New England inspired. With that said, I think Cleveland and St. Louis share that working class vibe and culturally more interchangeable with each other than either one is with Boston. Being from St. Louis I feel Philadelphia and Baltimore remind me the most of home. Boston, NYC, DC give off way more of the coastal elite vibe.

[pj3000]

^ you’re reading from a different page of music.