Hwy 99 Fraser River Tunnel (George Massey Replacement) | Proposed

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by officedweller

The other thing that people forget, however, is that the tolls on Port Mann (and Massey Bridge) are part of an overall scheme
of Traffic Demand Management to extend the period of free flow traffic for the structure before it reaches capacity.
You can already see the increase in usage at Port Mann with the removal of the tolls.
That means it will become congested/overburdened well before it was planned to be.

Yep. Nobody has the stones to do what should be done, which is a small toll on all major crossings. Then we can see what real demand is, and build accordingly.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by officedweller

The other thing that people forget, however, is that the tolls on Port Mann (and Massey Bridge) are part of an overall scheme
of Traffic Demand Management to extend the period of free flow traffic for the structure before it reaches capacity.
You can already see the increase in usage at Port Mann with the removal of the tolls.
That means it will become congested/overburdened well before it was planned to be.

The 10-lane GMB plan was intended to accommodate traffic to at least 2040 regardless of tolls.

[officedweller]

For the Port Mann, the Gateway Definition Reports projected that it would become congested again in 5-10 years without tolls and the tolls would keep congestion below then-current levels until 20131 or beyond. But there is a lot more growth along the Hwy 1 corridor than Hwy 99.

[libtard]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Yep. Nobody has the stones to do what should be done, which is a small toll on all major crossings. Then we can see what real demand is, and build accordingly.

No. Placing tolls on old, already existing crappy infrastructure is not what should be done. We toll newly built infrastructure with expanded capacity because faster commute time by using new said infrastructure is a luxury and warrants a toll. Nice try though

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by libtard

No. Placing tolls on old, already existing crappy infrastructure is not what should be done. We toll newly built infrastructure with expanded capacity because faster commute time by using new said infrastructure is a luxury and warrants a toll. Nice try though

Were you around when the PMB opened? It caused a traffic nightmare around the Patullo and to a lesser extent the AFB.

People act irrationally when it comes to time vs. money.

A smaller toll everywhere would be more efficient and fair. Nice try though.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

People act irrationally when it comes to time vs. money. A smaller toll everywhere would be more efficient and fair. Nice try though.

Another option might be to try peak-hour tolls, in order to push some of the traffic to different parts of the day.

[libtard]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Were you around when the PMB opened? It caused a traffic nightmare around the Patullo and to a lesser extent the AFB.

People act irrationally when it comes to time vs. money.

A smaller toll everywhere would be more efficient and fair. Nice try though.

Your idea isn’t how things work in the real world over here in North America. Won’t ever happen. Tolling newly built infrastructure happens all the time though.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by libtard

Your idea isn’t how things work in the real world over here in North America. Won’t ever happen. Tolling newly built infrastructure happens all the time though.

Now you're changing the argument. I didn't say it would be done, I said it should be done. If we care about efficiency and fairness.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

Another option might be to try peak-hour tolls, in order to push some of the traffic to different parts of the day.

Yes, time adjustable tolls should be a part of any system.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Yes, time adjustable tolls should be a part of any system.

Ontario’s tolled highways are like that.

[libtard]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Now you're changing the argument. I didn't say it would be done, I said it should be done. If we care about efficiency and fairness.

It shouldn’t be done and won’t be done. Like I said, slapping a toll on an old crappy piece of infrastructure is wrong. Once the capacity is upgraded on a crossing after it’s rebuilt, then a toll may be implemented

[dandor31]

Originally Posted by libtard

It shouldn’t be done and won’t be done. Like I said, slapping a toll on an old crappy piece of infrastructure is wrong. Once the capacity is upgraded on a crossing after it’s rebuilt, then a toll may be implemented

I tend to agree it won't be done. But that certainly doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. Maintaining all these assets costs a huge amount of money. The people and goods using these bridge should be paying for the cost to maintain them. Getting a free ride over expensive infrastructure is whats wrong.

And that isn't even getting into the benefits of demand management charges.

That said, the perception is "everyone" drives so everyone is happy to subsidize themselves. Or at the very least, those affluent enough to drive every day are also those who vote in every election.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by libtard

It shouldn’t be done and won’t be done. Like I said, slapping a toll on an old crappy piece of infrastructure is wrong. Once the capacity is upgraded on a crossing after it’s rebuilt, then a toll may be implemented

Our water crossings don't exist in a vacuum. There's always a substitute. Basic economics.

[ssiguy]

Tolls are the poster child of income elitism...............it's a flat tax. Whether you make $20k/year or $2 million you still pay the same rate made much worse by the fact that there are no alternatives for anyone going to Vancouver/Richmond/YVR from Ladner, Twass., or anyone from Victoria or the Gulf Islands.

Tolls also incentivize driving longer distances. Someone going from Ladner to Steveston Road will pay the same as someone going from White Rock to Vancouver. Also this is not a new road but simply an improvement on an existing one that hasn't been upgraded in half a century save 2 bus lanes. People already have their commuting and lifestyle patterns based upon the road and just because it's a expanded tunnel or bridge doesn't mean they can afford the extra $10 a day to take it.

[Migrant_Coconut]

So get rapid transit out to the suburbs, then roll out a tolling system? That's going to take a while.

Better to just toll at rush hour as suggested. There's plenty of empty space during the off-peak periods, it's just that nobody wants to use it - so charge people for peak usage, get them to leave earlier or later instead of all at once, solve traffic right now instead of fifty years down the road.

[misher]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

So get rapid transit out to the suburbs, then roll out a tolling system? That's going to take a while.

Better to just toll at rush hour as suggested. There's plenty of empty space during the off-peak periods, it's just that nobody wants to use it - so charge people for peak usage, get them to leave earlier or later instead of all at once, solve traffic right now instead of fifty years down the road.

Yep agreed. Back when I had to use the tunnel I’d go a hour early and eat lunch in the car while parked nearby work to avoid traffic. In the end if your in a rush or don’t mind you pay the toll and if your price sensitive you avoid it.

[flipper316]

https://www.richmond-news.com/delta-councillors-dismayed-by-province-s-tunnel-timeline-1.24023095

More of the same old shit but still nice to read up on mayor's and council view points.

[lightrail]

Originally Posted by libtard

It shouldn’t be done and won’t be done. Like I said, slapping a toll on an old crappy piece of infrastructure is wrong. Once the capacity is upgraded on a crossing after it’s rebuilt, then a toll may be implemented

It isn't wrong if the intent of the toll is to dampen demand and steer traffic to another crossing or another mode (skytrain or bus for example). It is the most efficient and best way to manage traffic. Bridges are obvious choices as they are pinch-points. But using electronics, we could "toll" different routes for the same purpose.

[jollyburger]

Why stop at tolls and just do mobility taxing (gas tax) to influence all drivers and not just ones that go over a bridge or tunnel.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

Why stop at tolls and just do mobility taxing (gas tax) to influence all drivers and not just ones that go over a bridge or tunnel.

Bridge tolls surgically target the exact points in the road network that are the bottlenecks. A gas tax won't dissuade someone from using a congested bridge because they've already paid the tax and the bridge trip doesn't cost them any more. But if you can directly associate a cost, even a small one, with use of a choke point then it's surprising how many people will try to avoid it.

The Port Mann Bridge toll showed this exact behaviour when a significant number of motorists diverted to the much more heavily congested Patullo bridge. They say time is money, but apparently for a lot of folks it just isn't worth anywhere near as much.