New Downtown Calgary Arena

[craner]

^^kev, I think your arena & stadium layout on the Stampede grounds would be awesome. Perhaps the architecture of the new stadium could pay homage to the demolished saddledome in some respects.

[speedog]

Originally Posted by craner

^Because of what you noted your post a couple of pages ago:


I realize you're probably just playing devil's advocate for the U of C but I think it's pretty obvious who McMahon's main tenant is and just how far at the bottom the facility is among the CFL stadiums.

I don't dispute McMahon's position but too many people think it's just so easy for CSEC to come in and demolish McMahon and rebuild something new there or do a huge amount of renovations to the old girl. In reality, does CSEC even own any sporting facilities?

[speedog]

Originally Posted by upperloge

I honestly like the concept of that. I'm still leaning towards the idea of a hockey rink on the grounds, and then rip down the dome AND the grandstand and replace with a stadium that has open endzones that you can run the chuckwagons right through the middle of. I really wish I had some skill with autocad or something to model that up, but an elevated bridge on both sides with video boards and for 2 weeks you roll up the turf and put down dirt to run the rangeland derby and rodeo. Stamps get a bye week and a road game over that window, and hey, the Stampeders play on the Stampede grounds. From what I can tell, a CFL field would more than accommodate the rodeo infield they have there now.

Makes it a multipurpose stadium that's uniquely Calgary, and heck, the Dinos could play there too as their season is nowhere near July.

A CFL field is I need large enough for the rodeo infield but the Stampede would still have to keep the existing track as the spot where the proposed stadium would sit couldn't accommodate a track the size of the existing one. Also, connected facilities would allow some economic savings due to some shareable behind the scenes support stuff.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

For Winnipeg, base cost was $190 million with the Blue Bombers picking up $85 million and the city/province picking up the rest of the tab. University of Manitoba contributed the land. There were some overruns and problems that had to be fixed, as well as some improvements that drove the cost higher in the end, maybe to around $210 MM. I'm not sure exactly how the costs were split. But by and large you can say that the Bombers are paying for somewhere in the 40-45% range.

Not sure about Regina but I don't think it was wildly different... the club is paying for a good chunk of the facility. They aren't being gifted to the teams by government. Oilers got a much, much sweeter deal despite being, in all likelihood, a far more profitable entity than the Bombers/Roughriders.

I'm not sure how you get a stadium built without some form of public assistance... has there ever been a pro stadium for anything, even minor league baseball, built in this country in modern times without a subsidy?

In this country, it is not possible. Outside of the Blue Jays, the tenants of major stadiums lack the revenue base for a large capital investment such as a stadium. That, along with the fact that for 1/3 to 1/2 of the year, most stadiums are unusable for major acts due to winter, occasional events like NHL outdoor games excepted.

The US is a different story - an NFL/MLB team can afford such a luxury, but fleecing the taxpayer there is as American as Chevrolet and apple pie.

Now an arena has a much better business case, provided there's potential for a NHL team (sorry Hamilton). An arena can be a 365-day a year operation. As a smaller venue, more acts will likely use it, which improves the profitability of it. If I'm not mistaken, the Air Canada Center and Bell Center were entirely privately financed - considering how busy those arenas are, I'm sure both facilities do well financially.

[esquire]

^ I believe GM Place and Scotiabank Centre were private too. MTS Centre was mostly private. I think it was really only the Alberta rinks that were built with mainly (exclusively?) public dollars out of Canada's NHL arenas.

As to the stampede/football joint venue... that seems like a very awkward fit. Considering how fans tend not to like baseball/football joint facilities, I doubt that a rodeo/football facility would be well suited to either purpose. I suppose I could be wrong, but it strikes me as very unlikely to work out in a way that either fan group would be satisfied.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by upperloge

I honestly like the concept of that. I'm still leaning towards the idea of a hockey rink on the grounds, and then rip down the dome AND the grandstand and replace with a stadium that has open endzones that you can run the chuckwagons right through the middle of. I really wish I had some skill with autocad or something to model that up, but an elevated bridge on both sides with video boards and for 2 weeks you roll up the turf and put down dirt to run the rangeland derby and rodeo. Stamps get a bye week and a road game over that window, and hey, the Stampeders play on the Stampede grounds. From what I can tell, a CFL field would more than accommodate the rodeo infield they have there now.

Makes it a multipurpose stadium that's uniquely Calgary, and heck, the Dinos could play there too as their season is nowhere near July.

A stadium will only make sense if it can concentrate as many uses as possible: CFL, field house, replacement of Stampede Grandstand and probably much more. Fire Park would be the ideal location for the stadium and Stampede Midway. A stadium is too monolithic to locate inner city. The Stampede Grounds are too valuable as in return city land to waste on uses like the Grandstand and Stampede Midway. Demolition of the Saddledome and Grandstand would free up huge tracts for inner city residential development. Of course it would need to be raised above floodplain.

[jeffwhit]

Originally Posted by Doug

A stadium will only make sense if it can concentrate as many uses as possible: CFL, field house, replacement of Stampede Grandstand and probably much more. Fire Park would be the ideal location for the stadium and Stampede Midway. A stadium is too monolithic to locate inner city. The Stampede Grounds are too valuable as in return city land to waste on uses like the Grandstand and Stampede Midway. Demolition of the Saddledome and Grandstand would free up huge tracts for inner city residential development. Of course it would need to be raised above floodplain.

Unless I'm mistaken about what land "Firepark" actually includes, there is no way to could accommodate a Football Stadium/Fieldhouse and a Horseracing facility, never mind the Exhibition part of the Stampede. This is besides the fact this is never going to happen.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by jeffwhit

Unless I'm mistaken about what land "Firepark" actually includes, there is no way to could accommodate a Football Stadium/Fieldhouse and a Horseracing facility, never mind the Exhibition part of the Stampede. This is besides the fact this is never going to happen.

I agree it will never happen as none of those activities have sufficient draw to justify the investment. Horse racing is dead. All a new facility would need to do is accommodate what the current Grandstand does for 10 days per year.

[MalcolmTucker]

A CFL/MLS stadium that works as a grandstand for rodeo and chucks might work? On the grounds of course.

[speedog]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

A CFL/MLS stadium that works as a grandstand for rodeo and chucks might work? On the grounds of course.

You'd still have to accommodate the chuckwagon track and moving away from the current track's site makes that virtually impossible to do.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by speedog

You'd still have to accommodate the chuckwagon track and moving away from the current track's site makes that virtually impossible to do.

Well, it would be phased, and you would need no facilities over ground level in the end zones. First step, demolish and replace the infield with a proper half of a football stadium. Replace the existing grandstand later, or the next season.

Would it be perfect, not really. But it would up your facility utilization days. I tihkn it can totally work where the existing track is.

[technomad]

I'm still a fan of the railtown site for the stadium / arena combo. I think those are better uses for trackside land than residential development is, and while you might not be able to accommodate the tailgate culture at a central location, having fort Calgary right next door for food vendors and beer gardens is a decent substitute

but.. if for whatever reason, the railtown land owners don't want to come to the table and be a part of a huge, potentially Olympic project for the city, and it has to be on stampede lands instead, I think stadium at the north end, and new arena on the big 4 site would be the best layout

and while I agree a stadium has to incorporate as many possible uses to get good value, I'm not sure the field-house combo is the way to go..

doing a blatant rip-off of BC place seems like the easy win for stadium, especially if on stampede grounds. make it covered, and integrate with BMO for the increased conference space.

BC place averages 200 days of use a year, does any other stadium in Canada even come close to that?

Not sure if McMahon could be retrofitted for the field-house in any way, but even a whole new build would be better located there imo

[CrossedTheTracks]

Originally Posted by technomad

BC place averages 200 days of use a year, does any other stadium in Canada even come close to that?

I don't mean to derail, but where did you get that number? A casual inspection of their events listing doesn't come close to that. (Not criticizing; I'd be awfully impressed with even ~150...)

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by CrossedTheTracks

I don't mean to derail, but where did you get that number? A casual inspection of their events listing doesn't come close to that. (Not criticizing; I'd be awfully impressed with even ~150...)

Events include convention uses - only way to explain that number.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by technomad

BC place averages 200 days of use a year, does any other stadium in Canada even come close to that?

I wouldn't be surprised with that number, but to clarify for others, that wouldn't be 200 events, rather ~40 events and then all the overhead of bringing in events and then cleaning them out. Turning around such a facility takes longer than say a convention centre.

[EDIT]

It it were, say a baseball field, with baseball games all the time, you could do more than the 40 or so I mentioned above, but BC place is not a baseball field. They would be able to turn soccer and football games around quicker, however.

[technomad]

Originally Posted by CrossedTheTracks

I don't mean to derail, but where did you get that number? A casual inspection of their events listing doesn't come close to that. (Not criticizing; I'd be awfully impressed with even ~150...)

their annual reports track total attendance over days used per year, but I found the 200 day claim here

As the world's largest air supported domed stadium, BC Place is also home to the province's largest trade and consumer shows including the Boat Show, Home Show and Auto Show. With major events happening over 200 days each year, BC Place truly is a place where dreams come alive.

and yes, I'd assume that accounts for all conference use, including the setup/teardown time required for those events

still, a great usage rate for the facility. even if Calgary only got half that to start it would be a huge boost of activity in the stampede area

[wave46]

Originally Posted by technomad

BC place averages 200 days of use a year, does any other stadium in Canada even come close to that?

Skydome does 80+ Blue Jays games per year and other large events, so 100 days a year of events is certainly within the realm of reason.

[speedog]

How many of BC Place's 200 days of use a year are events with attendees paying for seats in the stands and concessions being open for business?

McMahon in Calgary talks about how much usage that stadium gets but aside from the 10 or so Stampeder home games, it's just UofC Dino games, minor league football games, a few high school football games and practices for the Stampeders and Dino's and a handful of other oddball events.a. Of all of those stadium uses, concessions are only opened for the Stampeder and Dino games as well as sometimes a few high school games while seats in the stands are only sold for the Dino's and Stampeders.

That means the lights are on and a skeleton staff is still there for the majority of the McMahon's uses but it most likely isn't making any money. I wonder if the same could be said of BC Place's 200 uses in a year?

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by craner

Perhaps the architecture of the new stadium could pay homage to the demolished saddledome in some respects.

Please no.

[Calgarian]

Wasn't there talk about bringing IndyCar here a few years ago? That seems like something that would be better tied to the grandstand and would make some use of the Stampede grounds. Tying a football stadium to the grandstand would be quite technical and would require the perfect location.