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  #3681  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2013, 4:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Patrick S View Post
I've thought about paving them too, but I just don't think it's feasible. First off, the Santa Cruz River and Pantano Wash, for example, are really wide. That's a lot of concrete/asphalt - whatever they would use, thus a lot of money. I'm picturing like what they have out in LA, but I just don't think Tucson has the money for a project like that. We've got too much other stuff that's underfunded as it is - roads, TCC, closing public golf courses for example.
I agree with you. Hopefully sometime in the future those dry river beds will be developed. I don't know, maybe, a section of the Santa Cruz ,at least downtown area, could just be flattened with a bulldozer every now and then (flat dirt road). I have this urge to walk at the bottom of that river whenever I visit the Luis Gutierrez Bridge.
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  #3682  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2013, 4:35 PM
hthomas hthomas is offline
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Human and ecological value of dry river beds

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Originally Posted by Patrick S View Post
I've thought about paving them too, but I just don't think it's feasible. First off, the Santa Cruz River and Pantano Wash, for example, are really wide. That's a lot of concrete/asphalt - whatever they would use, thus a lot of money. I'm picturing like what they have out in LA, but I just don't think Tucson has the money for a project like that. We've got too much other stuff that's underfunded as it is - roads, TCC, closing public golf courses for example.
Development alongside the river bed would be great - highrise condos, mixed-use office retail, etc. However, I think that there is more value that can be added to Tucson through creative design and use of the bed than could be achieved by bulldozing and hardscaping the rivers. Here's a very brief article by Steward et al. if interested. http://www.esa.org/pdfs/Steward.pdf I think that the actual bed would make a great Greenway or park.
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  #3683  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2013, 4:39 PM
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Yikes! We we're just talking about famous and powerful McD's downtown and now I got this , http://www.nbcnews.com/business/wal-...rmat-1B8016291 . A Walmart in the Old Pima Courthouse or UA Main ? (joke, of course...or not).
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  #3684  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2013, 4:51 PM
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Originally Posted by farmerk View Post
I agree. The terrace looks nice and makes the building looks more like a certified green building. Hopefully, they would add solar panels on top (if it's not included).

Looks like the proposed buildings are getting nicer. Hopefully, it keeps up.

Another idea that I've got from the internet grapevine - instead of filling sections of Tucson's dry river beds (Santa Cruz, Rillito etc..) how about just paving the floor of the river and adding nicer vegetation at the slopes like trees and rose gardens and maybe, sculptures or steps. Then add thin mid-rise buildings at the banks. I've been hearing a lot of proposals creating a lake in sections of those dry rivers - I think it would be a waste of desert water. The water from rainfall could be collected to water those vegetation.
Does anyone remember the '83 floods? Or the floods of the early 90's? These dry riverbeds were so full of water they closed all the bridges that crossed them! These floods have happened in the past, they will happen again in the future. These river beds are some of the only protection the surrounding area has in an event of a flood, turning the riverbed into freeways would be a total disaster....HOWEVER, I don't think it's a totally wacky idea. I too have thought of how to take advantage of the wash space without taking away what the washes do for the city.

One idea I had was to build two lane expressways on both sides of the washes that would extend out from the sides. The two roadways would not touch in the middle leaving a wide open space in the middle. The support columns would be embedded into the walls of the river bed at an angle, leaving the bed untouched. The second idea was to build and elevated expressway somehow, that runs over the middle of the wash, but I have no idea how this would be done and probably crazy expensive.
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  #3685  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2013, 7:51 PM
Ted Lyons Ted Lyons is offline
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I can't believe anyone is advocating for paving the rivers. Paving the LA River was one of the worst civil engineering disasters of the 20th century and it's just now being rectified.

Beyond that, the city can't just show up and say, "Hey, we're going to totally alter a federally defined flood plain." This is why the Arroyo Chico restoration/alteration has been going on for almost 20 years.

Basic logistics aside, I can't imagine any developer wanting to put a project next to a giant concrete basin that would radiate intense heat all year. Again, look at LA and the general level of development that occurred next to their paved monstrosity.
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  #3686  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2013, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by aznate27 View Post
Does anyone remember the '83 floods? Or the floods of the early 90's? These dry riverbeds were so full of water they closed all the bridges that crossed them! These floods have happened in the past, they will happen again in the future. These river beds are some of the only protection the surrounding area has in an event of a flood, turning the riverbed into freeways would be a total disaster....HOWEVER, I don't think it's a totally wacky idea. I too have thought of how to take advantage of the wash space without taking away what the washes do for the city.

One idea I had was to build two lane expressways on both sides of the washes that would extend out from the sides. The two roadways would not touch in the middle leaving a wide open space in the middle. The support columns would be embedded into the walls of the river bed at an angle, leaving the bed untouched. The second idea was to build and elevated expressway somehow, that runs over the middle of the wash, but I have no idea how this would be done and probably crazy expensive.
Oh yeah, remember those rare floods and yes, it could happen again. I believe the Rillito River was once a proposed cross-town freeway. Roads spew heat and they get flooded, too. Maybe, a sophisticated drainage system (that collects water for later used) to divert flood in the updated dry river converted parks of Santa Cruz and Rillito.
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  #3687  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2013, 12:58 AM
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I see what you all see in the Santa Cruz. I hate to tell you but almost none of this is practical. Having highrises on its banks would be cool but that's all sand. The Santa Cruz is expanding, widening. The foundations that the buildings sit on land that is going to be washed into the ocean and are going to fall in when another flood occurs. It's better to leave it as it is. Our washes have to expand as we build more houses, roads, and stores. The Santa Cruz can't expand it can only get deeper. Placing cement in the wash would prevent erosion but won't look good and will help water flood. Placing decorative plants and making a form of a park would be the safest but we need to take into consideration that these plants will be washed away and retired washer machines will get caught in them
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  #3688  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2013, 1:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Ritarancher View Post
I see what you all see in the Santa Cruz. I hate to tell you but almost none of this is practical. Having highrises on its banks would be cool but that's all sand. The Santa Cruz is expanding, widening. The foundations that the buildings sit on land that is going to be washed into the ocean and are going to fall in when another flood occurs. It's better to leave it as it is. Our washes have to expand as we build more houses, roads, and stores. The Santa Cruz can't expand it can only get deeper. Placing cement in the wash would prevent erosion but won't look good and will help water flood. Placing decorative plants and making a form of a park would be the safest but we need to take into consideration that these plants will be washed away and retired washer machines will get caught in them
Then why is this happening? (below) Is the county/city planning a central park in Tucson? Personally, I'd love it. Trees, gardens, sculptures, more Luis Gutierrez bridges etc... Extend it to the rest of Santa Cruz and Rillito, at least within Metro Tucson.

The city/county is into water conservation so might as well implement a sophisticated water collection system and store it someplace. Those new buildings should add a water tank to collect water and add solar panels on top. The water saved in the tanks will be used to water those plants. I remember watching a clip at PBS where this one engineer proposed a city wide system to collect water from residential streets. And as I remember, he said that rain water is being wasted in Tucson. It's expensive and so is the modern street car. Not expecting this to be done right away given the current financial situation.

Anyway, at the moment, I would love to just see at least 1/4 mile within the Luis Gutierrez Bridge the bottom of the Santa Cruz river flattened by a bulldozer...put a sign 'Closed when raining'.

The architects/engineer can figure out how to build mid-rises on those banks.

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Originally Posted by ProfessorMole View Post
First time posting, but reading for about a year. Found this old story from 2010 below on Tucson Velo that had a picture of the proposed park area for the Three Rivers Park.

Pima County plans lake-front park with several bike amenities
Michael McKisson Tucson Velo



Drawing of potential layout for the park.
(image:tucson velo)
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  #3689  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2013, 3:59 PM
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Paving the Santa Cruz will never happen... ever. That dry river means way too much historically and environmentally to just slap some cement down and try and make it a road or something. You also have to realize that the river runs adjacent to a very large and noisy interstate, something no high end developer wants to invest along.

Im also a little unclear as to why the city should run a bulldozer down the wash... You realize its nothing but sand down there right?
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  #3690  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2013, 5:39 PM
ILikeEyeballs ILikeEyeballs is offline
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I moved to Tucson 6 months ago and live at the base of A mountain and work near the corner of Alvernon and 5th Ave. I've been driving through most of the major construction projects in Tucson every day and can tell you that things have really ramped up recently. The number of construction workers downtown has probably tripled in the past week. It's really cool to drive east on Congress from just west of I-10 and see new track being put in at the west end of the line, then both eastbound and westbound congress/broadway having extensive utility work and new track being put in, then the new building at stone and broadway going up, and then the cadence project starting to come together. It's a really great time to take a quick drive through if you get the chance to see a lot of activity going on.
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  #3691  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2013, 9:05 PM
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Originally Posted by bleunick View Post
Paving the Santa Cruz will never happen... ever. That dry river means way too much historically and environmentally to just slap some cement down and try and make it a road or something. You also have to realize that the river runs adjacent to a very large and noisy interstate, something no high end developer wants to invest along.

Im also a little unclear as to why the city should run a bulldozer down the wash... You realize its nothing but sand down there right?
I heard that when Tucson was first settled the water table was high enough that the now dry washes had water flowing in them, anyone hear the same??
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  #3692  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2013, 12:51 AM
Thirsty Thirsty is offline
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Originally Posted by aznate27 View Post
I heard that when Tucson was first settled the water table was high enough that the now dry washes had water flowing in them, anyone hear the same??
Yes, the water and farming is why people lived along the santa cruz.

Not only did water flow, it flowed on the surface rather than in deep sandy trenches.

What I recall reading is by a precess I don't understand, the digging of irrigation canals caused the river to dig out its own bed, and doing so killed its green shady banks.
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  #3693  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2013, 1:33 AM
Thirsty Thirsty is offline
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On the topic of what to do with the river, I've always liked the idea of widening it while raising the bed giving it gentler sloping banks that could be vegetated. Possibly using reclaimed water or a small portion of the CAP water to recreate the stream when it runs dry. This would be a depressed park that would still have to function as flood control.

If additional flood capacity is needed, and tunnel could be used while storing flood water for later.
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  #3694  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2013, 1:40 AM
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Originally Posted by aznate27 View Post
I heard that when Tucson was first settled the water table was high enough that the now dry washes had water flowing in them, anyone hear the same??
Same with the Salt River in downtown Phoenix and Tempe.
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  #3695  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2013, 2:00 AM
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The river has little chance of ever flowing again, flowing naturally. Cementing it like in Los Angeles would make Tucson ghetto and ruin te natural benefits of the wash. The river and it's banks are all sand, the support beams for themes bridge had to be placed deep underground because of all the sand. A lake in the Santa Cruz would have to be small because it's at an angle, loosing elevation northwards. Knowing that and knowing that the river is about 30 feet deep from its banks a regular cement dam in the downtown section would make a lake that would extend no father then the interstate 10 and 19 crossing, is what I'm guessing. What a better idea is to do what we did to create lakeside park on the east side. We place a dam on a tributary of the pantano and the excess water flows over the dam and the rest is kept untill the next rainstorm. Keep in mind that the Santa Cruze is where all these smaller washes, the rillato, and the pantano all lead to. As a city grows more water becomes runoff. A problem with placing skyscrapers on the banks is a bad idea, their weight will put more pressure on sand. I have also lived in Tucson for many years and I have witnessed the banks of the river collapsing into the river multiple times in various locations. I also saw the damage of the 83 floods. Plus where are we supposed to place those high rises along some of the most heavily developed land in the city. The reason that they are considering to build that sport park is because there is a lot of land for developers to plan space for excess water flow. Remember that the Santa Cruz is a very important river for our area, You wouldn't dam the Mississippi downstream from St Louis, would you?
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  #3696  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2013, 3:27 AM
Patrick S Patrick S is offline
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Originally Posted by Ritarancher View Post
The river has little chance of ever flowing again, flowing naturally. Cementing it like in Los Angeles would make Tucson ghetto and ruin te natural benefits of the wash. The river and it's banks are all sand, the support beams for themes bridge had to be placed deep underground because of all the sand. A lake in the Santa Cruz would have to be small because it's at an angle, loosing elevation northwards. Knowing that and knowing that the river is about 30 feet deep from its banks a regular cement dam in the downtown section would make a lake that would extend no father then the interstate 10 and 19 crossing, is what I'm guessing. What a better idea is to do what we did to create lakeside park on the east side. We place a dam on a tributary of the pantano and the excess water flows over the dam and the rest is kept untill the next rainstorm. Keep in mind that the Santa Cruze is where all these smaller washes, the rillato, and the pantano all lead to. As a city grows more water becomes runoff. A problem with placing skyscrapers on the banks is a bad idea, their weight will put more pressure on sand. I have also lived in Tucson for many years and I have witnessed the banks of the river collapsing into the river multiple times in various locations. I also saw the damage of the 83 floods. Plus where are we supposed to place those high rises along some of the most heavily developed land in the city. The reason that they are considering to build that sport park is because there is a lot of land for developers to plan space for excess water flow. Remember that the Santa Cruz is a very important river for our area, You wouldn't dam the Mississippi downstream from St Louis, would you?
No, I wouldn't dam the Mississippi River downstream of St. Louis, which they haven't, but they have dammed it south of Minneapolis/St. Paul (the Twin Cities), which is the biggest metro area on the river (#2 is St. Louis with about 1/2 million less than the Twin Cities, #3 is Memphis & #4 is New Orleans).

I would actually like to see some water back in the Santa Cruz. I grew up about 15 miles from the Mississippi River (as the crow flies - took about 30 - 45 minutes to drive to it) and went swimming in it a few times when I was a kid.

This is from Wikipedia's article on the Santa Cruz River:
"The Santa Cruz River is usually a dry riverbed through much of the year, unless the area receives significant rainfall. This was not always the case, as it was a combination of human errors and natural catastrophes in the late nineteenth century that led to the decline of the Santa Cruz

The city of Nogales, Sonora has been releasing treated sewage into the Santa Cruz River. This has resulted in the revival of several miles of riverbank within and north of the city of Nogales, Arizona."
This is a link about the decline of the river (a link to it is provided on the Wikipedia page too): http://faculty.fordham.edu/nballantyne/santacruz.html
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  #3697  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2013, 2:21 PM
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Originally Posted by bleunick View Post
Paving the Santa Cruz will never happen... ever. That dry river means way too much historically and environmentally to just slap some cement down and try and make it a road or something. You also have to realize that the river runs adjacent to a very large and noisy interstate, something no high end developer wants to invest along.

Im also a little unclear as to why the city should run a bulldozer down the wash... You realize its nothing but sand down there right?
The river beds are an eyesore to me - ugly vegetation littered the bottom which makes not a fun place to walk , jog, bike, have a party or even get drunk. Yeah, I know there's bike trails besides those dry river beds. Getting rid of those ugly vegetation by just bulldozing an area of the S.C. river bed will make a great place to dirt bike, play volleyball, play soccer or just take a stroll with your little kids and grandparents. I don't think it would cost that much to create a dirt road at a small section of the S.C. river.

Everyone here is comparing those ugly concrete washes in LA. I'm against that. Equally against building 'high rises' at the banks ... proposing more like 3-5 floor buildings. 'High rises' along the banks of the river ... that would look ugly! Think of Reid Park or Armory Park stretched out at those 99.9 percent dry riverbeds.

Tucson should be unique - please don't imitate the San Antonio river walk. Another reason why I personally like to turn Tucson into an urban mecca. I can't think of a city west of the Mississippi that's urban AND cheap.

Last edited by farmerk; Jan 19, 2013 at 2:46 PM.
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  #3698  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2013, 2:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Thirsty View Post
On the topic of what to do with the river, I've always liked the idea of widening it while raising the bed giving it gentler sloping banks that could be vegetated. Possibly using reclaimed water or a small portion of the CAP water to recreate the stream when it runs dry. This would be a depressed park that would still have to function as flood control.

If additional flood capacity is needed, and tunnel could be used while storing flood water for later.
That's a brilliant idea!
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  #3699  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2013, 2:29 PM
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Yes, the water and farming is why people lived along the santa cruz.

Not only did water flow, it flowed on the surface rather than in deep sandy trenches.

What I recall reading is by a precess I don't understand, the digging of irrigation canals caused the river to dig out its own bed, and doing so killed its green shady banks.
I read someplace (in the internetS , of course) that Sam Hughes (of Sam Hughes historic neighborhood) was one of those farmers that sucked in enough water from the Santa Cruz river for farming resulting in not enough water to replenish the Santa Cruz R. over the years. I guess those where the days before research or 'studies' where done.
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  #3700  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2013, 3:49 PM
bthom3000 bthom3000 is offline
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Originally Posted by Ritarancher View Post
The river has little chance of ever flowing again, flowing naturally. Cementing it like in Los Angeles would make Tucson ghetto and ruin te natural benefits of the wash. The river and it's banks are all sand, the support beams for themes bridge had to be placed deep underground because of all the sand. A lake in the Santa Cruz would have to be small because it's at an angle, loosing elevation northwards. Knowing that and knowing that the river is about 30 feet deep from its banks a regular cement dam in the downtown section would make a lake that would extend no father then the interstate 10 and 19 crossing, is what I'm guessing. What a better idea is to do what we did to create lakeside park on the east side. We place a dam on a tributary of the pantano and the excess water flows over the dam and the rest is kept untill the next rainstorm. Keep in mind that the Santa Cruze is where all these smaller washes, the rillato, and the pantano all lead to. As a city grows more water becomes runoff. A problem with placing skyscrapers on the banks is a bad idea, their weight will put more pressure on sand. I have also lived in Tucson for many years and I have witnessed the banks of the river collapsing into the river multiple times in various locations. I also saw the damage of the 83 floods. Plus where are we supposed to place those high rises along some of the most heavily developed land in the city. The reason that they are considering to build that sport park is because there is a lot of land for developers to plan space for excess water flow. Remember that the Santa Cruz is a very important river for our area, You wouldn't dam the Mississippi downstream from St Louis, would you?
Putting skyscrapers along the banks of the santa cruz can be done. Look at Shanghai. Their downtown area is a giant mud pit and yet they are constructing some of the tallest buildings in the world. The river itself maybe sand from all the sediment but i guarantee the earth around it is plenty good for towers.
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