Canadian Retail Thread

[SteelTown]

Geez they built so many big format Target stores in Hamilton too. They built a brand new one too.

Hopefully they'll find a replacement or else that's a lot of empty stores.

[Taeolas]

Freddy's Target is going to be rough to fill. Its location is ideal, but its size seems awkward (for an anchor store) and its parking orientation has always been horrendous.

It's got a Sobeys at the other end of the mall, a WalMart and Sears around the corner, and Canadian Tire around the other corner, so filling that space in is going to be really rough without another Department Store chain coming in to fill the gap. Short of Zellers coming back, I don't see that spot filling any time soon. (Which gives Freddy 3 Anchor Store sized locations sitting empty. *sigh* )

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I wonder how Nordstrom is feeling about their decision to come north? Different demographic, but still....

I think they are doing well in Calgary? They have the benefit of "A" level locations and a different demographic which is overall poorly served (in comparison) these days.

Even in the US, Target might be on borrowed time, and I wouldn't be surprised if the company collapsed completely.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

One of my co-workers is practically in tears over the loss of Target. Not because she knows anyone who works there, just because she loves the store so much.

I hope you're pulling our collective legs. If she's actually upset over something as inconsequential as a chain of stores pulling out she's truly one sad individual. She's lost the plot completely.

[eternallyme]

I think what we might be seeing is the death of "B"-level regional malls.

"C" malls can easily downsize and become community centres with lower-end retail. "A" malls attract areas of large population and large quantities of wealth for high productivity.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Even in the US, Target might be on borrowed time, and I wouldn't be surprised if the company collapsed completely.

So what happened? Seems that Target was the golden child of retail not even a decade ago. As a consumer, I find Target vastly more appealing as a place to shop than Wal-Mart, and the prices are for the most part the same or only marginally higher at Target... to me they're getting it right, but apparently I'm in the minority on this one.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

Freddy's Target is going to be rough to fill. Its location is ideal, but its size seems awkward (for an anchor store) and its parking orientation has always been horrendous.

It's got a Sobeys at the other end of the mall, a WalMart and Sears around the corner, and Canadian Tire around the other corner, so filling that space in is going to be really rough without another Department Store chain coming in to fill the gap. Short of Zellers coming back, I don't see that spot filling any time soon. (Which gives Freddy 3 Anchor Store sized locations sitting empty. *sigh* )

If it is what sounds like the primary mall, could a store just move from elsewhere in the city? Even though that creates dead space somewhere else, if a block is nothing but dead space it could be demolished and redeveloped/rezoned anyway.

[Delirium]

looks like target is pulling out of canada - leaving 17,600 without a job.

http://www.thestar.com/business/2015...of-canada.html

“After a thorough review of our Canadian performance and careful consideration of the implications of all options, we were unable to find a realistic scenario that would get Target Canada to profitability until at least 2021"

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

I think what we might be seeing is the death of "B"-level regional malls.

"C" malls can easily downsize and become community centres with lower-end retail. "A" malls attract areas of large population and large quantities of wealth for high productivity.

I think you're quite right.

Here in Moncton, we have only one mall left standing (Champlain Place), which fits the criteria of an "A" level mall with higher class fashion retailers. The other malls have been torn down or converted to suburban strips (like the Northwest Centre which contains the Target).

Retailing in Canada is becoming either high end or low end with a "hollowing out" of the middle class. This mirrors what has happened in society in general.....

[LFRENCH]

Originally Posted by esquire

So what happened? Seems that Target was the golden child of retail not even a decade ago. As a consumer, I find Target vastly more appealing as a place to shop than Wal-Mart, and the prices are for the most part the same or only marginally higher at Target... to me they're getting it right, but apparently I'm in the minority on this one.

I must be too, now that target will disappear wal mart won't be picking up my extra spending. When Target arrived I discovered how unsatisfied I was with Walmart.

In typical Canadian fashion, I think everyone will say a collective "don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out." all while ignoring what someone like target has done here.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by Proof Sheet

they didn't offer a one of a kind unique shopping experience.

I would say that is exactly what they did, usually you have to go to Venezuela or Zimbabwe to see empty department store shelves.

The main thing they did wrong was exhaustively studying Walmart's entry into Canada, which occurred in a spectacularly different climate in which Walmart was basically an unknown and remained mostly indistinguishable from a Woolco for years afterwards.

Target came into the market with enormous brand equity that created high expectations that they failed to deliver on in the presence of aggressive competitors. While Walmart entered a market that was just plain collapsing. The nature of the transaction was different, Target bought leasehold interests while Walmart bought Woolco from Woolworth but the Woolco stores didn't get shuttered for a year or more during the transition.

[Taeolas]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

If it is what sounds like the primary mall, could a store just move from elsewhere in the city? Even though that creates dead space somewhere else, if a block is nothing but dead space it could be demolished and redeveloped/rezoned anyway.

Target is in the Uptown Centre. It's a secondary mall that used to have indoor space but converted to the Smart Centre style (all outside entrances) 5-8 years ago. The main, and effectively only mall in the city is Regent mall, which is around the corner and across the highway from Uptown Centre. It's anchored by Walmart, Sears, Sports Centre, TRU, Cineplex and Chapters.

Uptown Centre is only anchored by Target and Sobeys (with a standalone Future Shop). Plus, Freddy (Fredericton) doesn't have any other stores that could decamp to that location. Superstore might be the only one anyone might consider it, and they have bigger stores located in better locations in the city.

The Target Location will probably have to be subdivided and hopefully some smaller retailers can move in. It's close enough to Regent that it can feed off that Centre's Shopping Radius at least (unlike the old Zellers location at Brookside Mall, across the river, or the old Crappy Tire location also across the river), and with the Big Box centre around Costco/Home Depot mostly filled out now, it might be appealing for someone like Old Navy or similar to start up in the area.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I think you're quite right.

Here in Moncton, we have only one mall left standing (Champlain Place), which fits the criteria of an "A" level mall with higher class fashion retailers. The other malls have been torn down or converted to suburban strips (like the Northwest Centre which contains the Target).

Retailing in Canada is becoming either high end or low end with a "hollowing out" of the middle class. This mirrors what has happened in society in general.....

In that case, you benefit a lot from having an enormous trade area - pretty much all of New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island and northern Nova Scotia. I believe that is the most productive mall in Atlantic Canada as well?

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

Target is in the Uptown Centre. It's a secondary mall that used to have indoor space but converted to the Smart Centre style (all outside entrances) 5-8 years ago. The main, and effectively only mall in the city is Regent mall, which is around the corner and across the highway from Uptown Centre. It's anchored by Walmart, Sears, Sports Centre, TRU, Cineplex and Chapters.

Uptown Centre is only anchored by Target and Sobeys (with a standalone Future Shop). Plus, Freddy (Fredericton) doesn't have any other stores that could decamp to that location. Superstore might be the only one anyone might consider it, and they have bigger stores located in better locations in the city.

The Target Location will probably have to be subdivided and hopefully some smaller retailers can move in. It's close enough to Regent that it can feed off that Centre's Shopping Radius at least (unlike the old Zellers location at Brookside Mall, across the river, or the old Crappy Tire location also across the river), and with the Big Box centre around Costco/Home Depot mostly filled out now, it might be appealing for someone like Old Navy or similar to start up in the area.

That could be a major problem then. Does Regent have any holes right now that any retailers currently near Target could move into (since IIRC that is the main mall there)?

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I wonder how Nordstrom is feeling about their decision to come north? Different demographic, but still....

It's also a slightly different strategy, At the end of the current build-out Nordstrom will still have less than a million square feet in the best malls in the country. The cost of carrying that and the associated supply chain is a whole lot smaller.

Their danger is that their demographic is highly mobile, their Nordstrom Rewards card is tucked in right next to their NEXUS card. They aren't competing with Holt Renfew and HBC, they're competing with their own US stores.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by LFRENCH

I must be too, now that target will disappear wal mart won't be picking up my extra spending. When Target arrived I discovered how unsatisfied I was with Walmart.

In typical Canadian fashion, I think everyone will say a collective "don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out." all while ignoring what someone like target has done here.

Interesting point. I have heard more than one person express a certain schadenfraeuede over Target's challenges in Canada... always comes out something like "Well, if they don't carry the Archer Farms Breakfast Sausages I like to buy at the stores in Minneapolis, then they can just go to hell"

I've never heard anyone air similar gripes about Walmart.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

In that case, you benefit a lot from having an enormous trade area - pretty much all of New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island and northern Nova Scotia. I believe that is the most productive mall in Atlantic Canada as well?

Champlain Place is the major fashion mall for NB and PEI, and is the only mall in Atlantic Canada managed by Cadillac Fairview. It does very well and has an impressive selection of high end retailers, but I don't know for sure if it is the most successful mall in the region. The Halifax Shopping Centre in Halifax has more high end retailers than Champlain does.

Champlain Place will be getting the first Bass Pro Shops in Atlantic Canada this year (and only the fourth one in Canada)

[eternallyme]

Honestly, I'd be more worried about many of Target's US locations. I can see the whole company collapsing in the next few years. Most of those locations are bad anyway.

[Taeolas]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

That could be a major problem then. Does Regent have any holes right now that any retailers currently near Target could move into (since IIRC that is the main mall there)?

Not too many; it's got maybe 3 or 4 slots, left over from stores moving to the Big Box section, or from the retailer (Garage) moving out; but it's still well within the usual post-XMas churn. Uptown Centre has a few stores that might consider moving to Regent Mall, but most of them have been there for ages and unlikely to move. (Or already exist in both malls, like Reitmans).

I could almost see Staples deciding to move from the middle of the Uptown Centre to the end, but that's just shifting deck chairs really, unless Marks is interested in expanding. (Marks is next to Staples. Staples moving would give Marks room to expand into, but they wouldn't want/need all that space)

Otherwise, I think the best bet would be a store like Old Navy (Freddy doesn't have one yet but might be on the verge of being big enough for one) coming in there. They'd ideally want to be in the Corbett Centre but that area only has 1 phase left to build now.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by esquire

So what happened? Seems that Target was the golden child of retail not even a decade ago. As a consumer, I find Target vastly more appealing as a place to shop than Wal-Mart, and the prices are for the most part the same or only marginally higher at Target... to me they're getting it right, but apparently I'm in the minority on this one.

They were ahead of the curve on a few trends, particularly "fast fashion" and in most of the US didn't really have a trailer park or ghetto stigma attached to it. Target was drawing younger and more affluent consumers away from more upmarket mall based stores while Walmart was basically riding the wave of the working class becoming the working poor.