Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[esquire]

Originally Posted by someone123

I am not sure I'd characterize this as "out of reach" of the city. It is more that there isn't much support for the project. The municipality would not take on as much debt as Regina took on. Not everywhere is that big on football or sports in general. And there is still a chance the project will move forward with Shannon Park as the location.

To be clear, I'm not saying it's impossible. I mean, if Halifax decided that a stadium was a priority and was willing to forgo other projects in the short term, it could get a deal done today if it really wanted to do. But it appears that the conditions don't exist and the desire isn't really there... which is why I'd say it is out of reach.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

The scale in SaskScraper's picture is not quite the same. It's exaggerating the difference in size (the scale in Google Maps depends on the latitude). It would be possible to fit a larger stadium in that area with some reconfiguration of the streets and some minor nearby buildings. It wouldn't necessarily need to be the same design as the stadium in Saskatchewan.
.

As much as I would love for Halifax to get a stadium and enter the CFL, and for that stadium to be on the downtown peninsula, do you really think this is true about this site?

Just thinking about the size of something like Tim Hortons Field in Hamilton, and the site as it looks from the air.

Yes there are some buildings that could be sacrificed but there are some thing that are basically untouchable and unmovable: the Museum of Natural History at the top, and the Halifax Public Gardens at the bottom.

If you look at the space between those two, it's hard to imagine a 22-24,000 stadium fitting in there. Even a bare-bones one that doesn't extend much beyond the grandstands.

And I won't even mention the public and political hue and cry over having a tall stadium structure looming over part of the sacred public gardens.

[NewIreland]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

Sorry Acajack, slow to following this thread,
nope, Celine is by no means small potatoes, far from it.

I can probably count on my fingers the number of Canadian music artists my UK husband recognizes by name, Nelly Furtago, Joni Mitchell, Avril Lavigne, KD Lang, etc etc.. They've all have been to SaskTel Centre (or at least at festivals in S'toon) in the last decade...Shania Twain last year... But my husband knows Celine is specifically from Quebec, the rest only when I tell him where exactly in Canada they are originally from.

Yes it it appears Celion has announced a stop in Saskatoon, not really my type of female artists from Quebec i'd go see, Grimes or Faouzia would be more the type of music I like.

• Video Link

• Video Link


EDIT* pardon me David Guetta collaborator, Faouzia is from Francophone Manitoba

Grimes is from Vancouver.

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by NewIreland

Grimes is from Vancouver.

OMG, i'm totally off with Canadian female artists today!!!

good catch

Grimes (Claire Elise Boucher), is in actuality from Vancouver, BC with Québécois and Ukrainian descent... looking at wikipedia...

originally posted by someone123

The scale in SaskScraper's picture is not quite the same. It's exaggerating the difference in size (the scale in Google Maps depends on the latitude). It would be possible to fit a larger stadium in that area with some reconfiguration of the streets and some minor nearby buildings. It wouldn't necessarily need to be the same design as the stadium in Saskatchewan.

hmmmm, Google maps seems to be calibrated to latitude... and altitude and everything else one could think to bring up.

I did a Google Map comparison between mile high Boulder Colorado's Folsom Stadium and Orlando's Camping World Stadium couple thousand kms to the south and the scales match exactly.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

OMG, i'm totally off with Canadian female artists today!!!

good catch

Grimes (Claire Elise Boucher), is in actuality from Vancouver, BC with Québécois and Ukrainian descent... looking at wikipedia...

Though it's that with a name like that, one might be led to believe that she's from Quebec.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As much as I would love for Halifax to get a stadium and enter the CFL, and for that stadium to be on the downtown peninsula, do you really think this is true about this site?

Yes. There was previous discussion about this in the Halifax stadium thread. THF is about 190x190 m and this fits between the Museum of Natural History and Sackville Street (based on the Google Maps distance measurement tool). Presumably the engineers and architects of the project would also have some room to scale the project up or down by a few percent as needed.

It is true that the stands of the stadium would be close to the Public Gardens. Then again they're on the north side so there is no shadow impact.

Another possibility is to use the space between Cogswell/Trollope/Bell. This is a perfect spot for a stadium in the city. It would requite replacing small things like the skatepark. It's unfortunate how the land in that area has been used in a haphazard way for decades with no plan to keep large plots open for something like a stadium. The city should have set a stadium site aside before developing Citadel High around 15 years ago.

I'm not actually pro-CFL or trying to grasp at straws, just reporting what fits where on those Common sites.

Gorsebrook Park is another possibility. There are others in central parts of Halifax. The problem is not so much that there is no land, it's that the city is willing to put almost no effort into assembling a site and does not want to upset any neighbours or take any initiative in planning the project. It's a fantasy to expect that there could be a perfect stadium-sized site in a good location prepped for construction with no further work required.

This ties in with my claim that the CFL isn't a huge issue in Halifax. It's something the city is semi-enthusiastic about and that a lot of people don't care about at all. It's not a project the city is failing to complete despite being hell-bent on it. A stadium is probably capital spending priority #9 right now or something like that.

I think I was only vaguely aware of the CFL when I lived there, until there was the push to bring a team to the city around the time of the Commonwealth Games bid.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

hmmmm, Google maps seems to be calibrated to latitude... and altitude and everything else one could think to bring up.

Google Maps sometimes uses a globe and sometimes it uses a mercator projection or possibly some kind of blending of the two. The scale of the mercator projection changes with latitude. You can see this by going to a zoom level like 2 km, dragging the map north, and watching the scale change.

Anybody can confirm for themselves that the scale bars in the image you posted earlier don't match up. If you're not sure, drop them into a paint tool and align them with each other vertically.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by someone123

Yes. There was previous discussion about this in the Halifax stadium thread. THF is about 190x190 m and this fits between the Museum of Natural History and Sackville Street (based on the Google Maps distance measurement tool). Presumably the engineers and architects of the project would also have some room to scale the project up or down by a few percent as needed.

Could even compress the stadium width somewhat by having upper-tier seating overhang the lower sections.

Re: this prospective ownership, do they have real-estate development connections? They may push for the Dartmouth site for that reason.

During the Hamilton stadium debate there was a lot of speculation about Bob Young's interests related to his associates in commercial development. The "east mountain" option the team was pushing had potential for that, in an area that's become suburban box retail central... same with the west end compromise that would have been a decent location (CP wanted big bucks for their rail yard land though). I always felt this was the real reason the team didn't want to play at the city's preferred West Harbour site.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

Re: this prospective ownership, do they have real-estate development connections? They may push for the Dartmouth site for that reason.

During the Hamilton stadium debate there was a lot of speculation about Bob Young's interests related to his associates in commercial development. The "east mountain" option the team was pushing had potential for that, in an area that's become suburban box retail central... same with the west end compromise that would have been a decent location (CP wanted big bucks for their rail yard land though). I always felt this was the real reason the team didn't want to play at the city's preferred West Harbour site.

They have an agreement with Canada Lands. Canada Lands is developing the Shannon Park site.

I can't help but feel like there's a bit of an age or demographic angle here. The project is mostly older guys and they seem to have a very suburban and car-oriented mindset that reminds me of how planning was done in the 90's. Basically they seem to imagine that everybody will drive (or bus) to the game then drive home. I wonder how much that kind of thing will appeal to the younger people the CFL would have to appeal to in the coming decades if this project moves forward.

About half of the development in metro Halifax is happening in the urban core. There could be a situation where the Wanderers play at a central location that you can walk to and where there are lots of fun options pre- and post-game. Shannon Park won't seem very appealing in comparison. I believe fans in Halifax for the most part are not preoccupied with any particular sport (maybe that would be different if the NHL were in town but that's not happening). They will go to whatever seems most fun.

[someone123]

This is the site they are planning to use:

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.6835.../data=!3m1!1e3

Here's the report for whoever is interested: https://www.halifax.ca/sites/default...%20Final22.pdf

Based on the site it looks like the stadium footprint will be about 160 m wide, though they could expand the facility in the future. The listed capacity is 24,159 seats.

[thurmas]

I just hope this sucker gets built already as it would be so cool to have a Grey Cup in Halifax.

[Djeffery]

32 months seems to be a long build time for such a simple stadium design. Ivor Wynne was demolished and Tim Horton's Field built in 2 years.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

32 months seems to be a long build time for such a simple stadium design. Ivor Wynne was demolished and Tim Horton's Field built in 2 years.

The construction schedule is 2 years. The extra time is for negotiation with the city and detailed design.

Their schedule of 2 months for municipal business case review and project agreement is incredibly optimistic. Even if it is successful I could see that taking 6-12 months.

[SteelTown]

Hamilton Bulldogs offering $30M toward proposed $72M Mountain arena
Owner Michael Andlauer is speaking to councillors about his pitch this morning.

https://www.thespec.com/news-story/9...ountain-arena/

Hamilton Bulldogs owner Michael Andlauer is proposing to pay up to $30 million toward the construction of a proposed $72-million OHL arena at Lime Ridge Mall.

The contentious pitch, to be made publicly this morning to Hamilton city councillors, also include a city-built $54-million parking garage at the Mountain mall, with Cadillac Fairview expected to lease the needed land for $1 a year.

Andlauer's presentation, made available ahead of this morning's meeting at city hall, also suggests a partnership with Metrolinx on the parking garage is possible via a related GO Transit park-and-ride.

The hockey team also proposes to take over management of the pitched 6,000-seat arena for 20 years, a move it suggests would eliminate the taxpayer subsidy on the current aging FirstOntario Centre downtown.

The public presentation was requested by council after The Spectator obtained and reported on a copy of a confidential arena pitch that suggested the city share the cost of a Mountain arena — but didn't reveal how much taxpayers would be expected to cough up.

The unsolicited pitch from Andlauer and Cadillac Fairview landed like a bomb amid a separate debate over whether to pursue a private-public redevelopment of all city-owned entertainment facilities downtown.

A city consultant has recommended building a $130-million, 10,000-seat arena and concert facility downtown alongside new private sector, "high-intensity" development and — eventually — a new convention centre.

Council has delayed moving ahead with that recommendation to deal with the surprise Mountain arena proposal.

[thurmas]

6000 seats works for the OHL but seems too small for a Hamilton market of 750,000 people?

[wave46]

Originally Posted by thurmas

6000 seats works for the OHL but seems too small for a Hamilton market of 750,000 people?

If Hamilton didn't have a city of 5 million 45 minutes down the QEW (yes, when traffic actually moves on it), 6000 would be ludicrously small for its population.

Given that the big acts tend to pass right over, 6000 feels about right. Who else would use that capacity?

[SteelTown]

Total cost for the arena is $126 million, with $30 million from Andlauer the city would be on the hook for $96 million.

That's far more than the city contributed to Tim Hortons Field, $40 million.

Council doesn't seem impressed and I doubt they'll approve this.

[king10]

The city has to pay for a $54M parking lot all on its own? That should be included in addition the cost of the $72M arena.

[king10]

Originally Posted by wave46

If Hamilton didn't have a city of 5 million 45 minutes down the QEW (yes, when traffic actually moves on it), 6000 would be ludicrously small for its population.

Given that the big acts tend to pass right over, 6000 feels about right. Who else would use that capacity?

The EY consultant report identified the users who would use greater than 6000 seats, there were actually quite a few. That report recommended a 10,000 seat arena which I think replicated what they have going in London, just large enough to get some of those bigger names acts, but not cost prohibitive to run like an 18,000 seat arena.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by king10

The EY consultant report identified the users who would use greater than 6000 seats, there were actually quite a few. That report recommended a 10,000 seat arena which I think replicated what they have going in London, just large enough to get some of those bigger names acts, but not cost prohibitive to run like an 18,000 seat arena.

Yeah, that's about what I would have expected for Hamilton, something on the scale of Budweiser Gardens (or whatever it's called now) in London. At least 10, maybe 12 thousand seats. Then you can get into hosting some of the bigger national sports events like the Brier, Memorial Cup, etc.

I mean, 6,000 seats is on par with what they have in Brandon, Manitoba....