Trillium Line Upgrades & Extension (Stage 2) [Greenboro to Airport/Limebank] | U/C

[LRTeverywhere]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

Train scheduling is a well understood math problem including allowances for delays and buffer time. Even with our general incompetence in rail projects, I really don't think the line is incapable of supporting an average 12 minute headway. Engineers wouldn't have designed the tolerances to be that tight. Also, since these trains aren't automated like the confed line, they aren't likely to be as clockwork, and they would probably have an expected a variability of +- 1-2 minutes in the schedule. These variances probably will average out to 12 minutes. You're not likely to be standing there for 30 minutes waiting for a train, but it might be from 10 to 14 minutes, usually landing around 12ish.

Exactly, and this is how it was before as well, sometimes trains would arrive perfectly in sync at Carleton, other times they would be a minute or two off and the other train would have to wait. Something I've been noticing now is the other train is able to leave as the other train is starting to arrive since the passing track is longer now. I have also been randomly timing train sequences and have encountered a few times where trains are running closer to 11min, but not consistent on the dot each time, but with variance.

[lrt's friend]

Good News! Trains are now running in the evening. I saw two trains at Greenboro around 11 p.m.

[Kitchissippi]

Seeing the trains running empty during Canada Day seemed like a waste when people could have used it for free.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Seeing the trains running empty during Canada Day seemed like a waste when people could have used it for free.

Sure it's free but without a stop at Pimisi for many it's a trian to nowhere today.
I bet we see a full house cleaning of the NCC post election.

[LRTeverywhere]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Sure it's free but without a stop at Pimisi for many it's a trian to nowhere today.
I bet we see a full house cleaning of the NCC post election.

That would be quite unfortunate seeing as the decision to close Booth st was made by Heritage Canada and not the NCC. Also believe Kitchissippi is refering to the empty line 2 trains that are testing and not the very well utilized today line 1 trains.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Seeing the trains running empty during Canada Day seemed like a waste when people could have used it for free.

Maybe next year. As it stands, the stations are not 100% ready for public use.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by LRTeverywhere

That would be quite unfortunate seeing as the decision to close Booth st was made by Heritage Canada and not the NCC. Also believe Kitchissippi is refering to the empty line 2 trains that are testing and not the very well utilized today line 1 trains.

Interesting. It's likely a very much bureacratic decision. Keeping everything controlled over any kind of logic.

Line 2 trains are of course not opertational. You certainly don't test or open them with crush loads of Canada day. If they allow people to walk to Bayview for South bound trains that would relieve some pressure. The obvious answer for the absolute chaos after the fireworks is to open more ways to get out. They could also consider using both sides of the tracks West bound from LeBreton and use Lyon for East Bound using both tracks as well for at least a few runs. That would work better with the extension where westbound they could go to the different endpoints and east bound there is room for a lot of trains before it gets backed up.

[lrt's friend]

I am afraid that the chances of a Labour Day opening are getting slimmer.

I just came back from South Keys. Overall, testing was more precise and regular, the best I have seen, until I was about to leave, when an airport train took a slot that should have been reserved for the southbound main line. There was a southbound main line train about to enter South Keys at the time. If there is any glitch or delay in scheduling, the main line should get priority. Up until that point, the trains were running relatively smoothly. The northbound train at South Keys was being delayed by a minute or two longer than you would hope for smooth operations waiting for the southbound train to reach the double track just north of South Keys, but that was the worst it got, until airport train slid into the mainline train slot. One improvement, was the reduction in time the airport train dwelled at South Keys. Including clearing the signals south of Hunt Club, the time required was reduced from 6 to 8 minutes down to 4 minutes. This should offer more flexibility for the mainline. However, the airport trains were not precise in their departures from South Keys. There was a little too much variability than you would hope for.

The station itself has not seen any significant changes. The southbound walkway from the station is now gated, so you have to walk towards the Juno pedestrian bridge before you can go south. Nothing inside the station (ie fare gates etc.) have changed in months. One of the ticket machines was unboxed just outside the station entrance.

[kmcamp]

I think we're definitely not launching until further in the fall.. As for the station there's nothing to do except cleanup.The fare gates will remain wrapped until right before opening. They already tested them last year.

I guess the race is on between line 2 and Eglinton, which opaque timeline will finally get an opening date

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

I think we're definitely not launching until further in the fall.. As for the station there's nothing to do except cleanup.The fare gates will remain wrapped until right before opening. They already tested them last year.

I guess the race is on between line 2 and Eglinton, which opaque timeline will finally get an opening date

From what I understand, the two lines have different problems. Eglinton has track/wheel compatibility issues and the Eglinton/Yonge station has been challenging to get built, whereas we are having train logistical problems relating to single track operations. In the long-term, the former will get resolved, whereas our problem may be ongoing. I have said it since this proposal became public that we are trying to run too many trains on too many sections of single track.

I have not watched the trains significantly except at South Keys, but the passing tracks to the north have been in operation since 2016 and improved as part of this project. However, I question how well thought out the single track section between South Keys and Brookfield has been. When I watch the trains, passing mostly occurs on a tiny section of track just north of South Keys. At the very minimum, we should have double tracked between South Keys and Greenboro, but Greenboro Station would be difficult to retrofit for double tracking.

Maybe, we will eventually get this working reliably, but scheduling glitches will be difficult to recover from. We have built too much inflexibility.

Overall, the Line 2 design leaves a lot to be desired. If the mainline had been fully double tracked, we would likely be open today. Airport trains would have been able to run to Bayview. Service frequency would be more flexible. We probably could function with the same number of trains with 7.5 minute service between South Keys and Bayview, and 15 minute service to Riverside South and the Airport. We could have also operated with Lint sized trains (smaller stations would suffice) and if demand required it, frequency could eventually be improved easily with a few more trains.

I look at Riverside South and Line 2 stations are poorly located. We were told that Limebank Station would spur development since it was approved in 2019. Very little has happened. Yeah, eventually something will happen. Instead, hundreds of homes have been built between Spratt and River Road. We should have brought rail closer to these new homes, with additional stations at Spratt and the Riverview Park n Ride next to the Vimy Bridge. The city must have known where development was being prioritized.

Of course, this would have cost a pile of money, but the success of rapid transit is dependent on offering proper service levels and locating stations in the right locations. We plan on revising the bus network based on Line 2 being a trunk line, but we are not offering trunk line service levels.

Also, based on what is happening today, I wish we would have made Bowesville Station a multi-modal station, so that connections between trains, and buses going in every direction would be easier, and to maximize the effectiveness of the Park n Ride. As it stands, connections between bus routes often requires a couple of station hop. Great for efficiency, but terrible for the transit rider.

[kmcamp]

The especially fun part is Bowsville has a heated transecure shelter and a paid fare bus area, but will actually have no bus service.

Instead, buses will be at Limebank, which is reusing the old Trillium Line shelters (complete with stickers still on them) and does not have a fare paid bus area but will require all transferring riders to pass through the faregate

[vtecyo]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

The especially fun part is Bowsville has a heated transecure shelter and a paid fare bus area, but will actually have no bus service.

Instead, buses will be at Limebank, which is reusing the old Trillium Line shelters (complete with stickers still on them) and does not have a fare paid bus area but will require all transferring riders to pass through the faregate

Wat? It sounds like they never updated the design from when Bowesville was originally going to be the end of the extension...

[acottawa]

The OC Transpo YouTube channel has a POV video and arriving at the elaborate stations in the middle of nowhere has a weird vibe.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The OC Transpo YouTube channel has a POV video and arriving at the elaborate stations in the middle of nowhere has a weird vibe.

I'd predict in 15 years people will be using it as an example of great foresight (while simultaneously continuing to lament the lack of investment elsewhere, but nonetheless).

[DTcrawler]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I'd predict in 15 years people will be using it as an example of great foresight (while simultaneously continuing to lament the lack of investment elsewhere, but nonetheless).

That's exactly the issue though... sure the RSS stations might deliver ROI over a decade from now, but the need to double track the existing length of the line and improve frequency was far more pressing. Now we're looking at another lengthy closure in the future to achieve the latter, while the former could have been built as an extension without disrupting existing service during construction.

As much as you try to defend it, it's simply boneheaded decision-making lacking any ounce of rationality. Just like the rest of transit planning here and in most of Canada, it's "how do we avoid uproar from suburban 'muh tax dollars!!!' types" who just want to see the investment (but not use it) instead of trying to maximize ridership.

Sure the Line 2 Stage 2 project will be modest improvement over what was there before, but I predict in 15 years when we look at what we've got and consider we closed the line for 4 years to achieve it, it'll feel pretty sad.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I'd predict in 15 years people will be using it as an example of great foresight (while simultaneously continuing to lament the lack of investment elsewhere, but nonetheless).

That seems pretty unlikely. For a station like Bowesville to look anywhere near aligned with demand it would require the highest density neighbourhood in the city, which seems pretty unlikely in the approach for the airport and given Ottawa/developer aversion to very high density, and an unclear demand for exurban high-rises and not to mention the parking lot that will take up much of the space near the station.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

That seems pretty unlikely. For a station like Bowesville to look anywhere near aligned with demand it would require the highest density neighbourhood in the city, which seems pretty unlikely in the approach for the airport and given Ottawa/developer aversion to very high density, and an unclear demand for exurban high-rises and not to mention the parking lot that will take up much of the space near the station.

That isn't necessarily true. If Bowesville is surrounded by medium density to the northwest and west (per Riverside South Secondary Plan) and to the south (Bowesville Expansion Lands) - it could see quite high ridership by being a bus transfer station. Rapid transit stations don't necessarily need to be surrounded by high density TOD to have high ridership.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

That isn't necessarily true. If Bowesville is surrounded by medium density to the northwest and west (per Riverside South Secondary Plan) and to the south (Bowesville Expansion Lands) - it could see quite high ridership by being a bus transfer station. Rapid transit stations don't necessarily need to be surrounded by high density TOD to have high ridership.

Taking a bus to Bowesville where headways are 12 minutes and likely changing trains at Bayview is a very long haul. They can build medium density there but it won't see a ton of transit users. It'd be less convenient than lots of suburbs much further from a station.

[lrt's friend]

We have to think of all the population, not just TOD. You might have 10 percent of the population within walking distance of the three Southend stations at best. The rest have to drive or take an infrequent bus. What is the real ridership potential for the enormous investment compared to the original plan that had more than 50 percent within walking distance and served parts of Barrhaven plus the central part to be all double tracked and no Bayview transfer. At the time, it looked bad but there is no bus jam downtown anymore. It is now 15 years since that would have opened, and we make statements about 15 years in the future. That is 30 years, with the most critical part still single tracked. Is that really good planning especially if trains could be held up at a station if a train in the opposite direction is even slightly delayed

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

That isn't necessarily true. If Bowesville is surrounded by medium density to the northwest and west (per Riverside South Secondary Plan) and to the south (Bowesville Expansion Lands) - it could see quite high ridership by being a bus transfer station. Rapid transit stations don't necessarily need to be surrounded by high density TOD to have high ridership.

A local bus in a medium density neighbourhood comes about every 10 minutes. Optimistically you might have 1-2 buses arrive for every train departure, which would make the station look like COVID times. And I am not sure that is an improvement over bring local buses to South Keys.