New Downtown Calgary Arena

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by craner

In what universe is McMahon adequate ?

I was there for the heritage classic a few years back and it was extremely evident that the facilities in that stadium are completely inadequate, Washrooms were at least a 30 minute round trip, the beer and food lines were like 20 minutes and the concourse was completely crammed. To be fair, it was like -20 so people were taking their sweet time, but it should never be that bad.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by msmariner

I'm not sure all around that Edmonton's couldn't have been better. I recently went to a game there and was less than impressed. If you were in the first level there was an over abundance of vendors. The 200 level on the other hand had very few options. The wait was close to 30 mins at one of the few beer stands. We chose one of the guys who sell beer from the portable coolers. He sold us one for $14. Guess you can charge what you want when the other option is standing in line or taking that stupid long escalator down to the first level. They need to get the concessions sorted out for the majority of fans who sit in the second deck.

This is actually the first negative review I've read, most I know that go there come back raving about it.

[CalgaryAlex]

Originally Posted by esquire

May I remind you that my mediocre little town managed to get a new arena and a new stadium built in the last 15 years

Is MTS Centre the grandest facility there is? No. But it was good enough to land Atlanta's hockey team from the impressive Philips Arena. And what's more, it was built with a measly $40 million public contribution, so as a mediocre Winnipegger I can happily accept that result instead of bending over to pick up a massive Edmonton-style tab to gift Katz with a free arena so that he can have more money left over to proposition Brazilian models with.

Getting a new arena and not overpaying for it doesn't sound mediocre to me. It sounds like world-class decision making.

[Tarsus]

How much public money went into the stadium? Same for Regina, I know there was public money, and all for a venue that used only a few times a year.

I'm baffled by the people of Calgary. Everyone seems okay with the idea of putting money into a stadium that's hardly ever used, but put public money into an arena, and people freak out.

Originally Posted by esquire

May I remind you that my mediocre little town managed to get a new arena and a new stadium built in the last 15 years

Is MTS Centre the grandest facility there is? No. But it was good enough to land Atlanta's hockey team from the impressive Philips Arena. And what's more, it was built with a measly $40 million public contribution, so as a mediocre Winnipegger I can happily accept that result instead of bending over to pick up a massive Edmonton-style tab to gift Katz with a free arena so that he can have more money left over to proposition Brazilian models with.

[Tarsus]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

This is actually the first negative review I've read, most I know that go there come back raving about it.

I'm not sure where you are getting 'Best in the world' from when it comes to Rogers Place? I've been to the Rogers Place, and while I wouldn't give it a negative review, I wouldn't call it the 'world's best'. It's very typical of today's new arenas...no better no worse. It's no better than some of the other new arenas I've been to (Air Canada Centre, or Centre Bell) I thought the Staples centre was better, I also think the BB&T centre in Sunrise is nicer.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by CalgaryAlex

Getting a new arena and not overpaying for it doesn't sound mediocre to me. It sounds like world-class decision making.

It is a little small though, and each marginal row up top, or in the bottom bowl means a larger roof span, larger concourses, larger bathrooms. It isn't a linear per seat cost type thing.

Also, 2003-4.

Unfortunately, Winnipeg isn't tracked in the statscan construction price index, so using montreal to sub for it.

So in Montreal 2016 prices it would be $196.89 million. Assuming Calgary and Montreal were the same price to build things in 2003-4 (which likely wasn't true), in Calgary it would cost $219.69 million for an opening day configuration MTS in Calgary.

[jc_yyc_ca]

It's called group think and the left wing latte lifters tend to fall into group think rather easily. Don't take what you see on this forum as any measure of what the public really wants.

Originally Posted by Tarsus

How much public money went into the stadium? Same for Regina, I know there was public money, and all for a venue that used only a few times a year.

I'm baffled by the people of Calgary. Everyone seems okay with the idea of putting money into a stadium that's hardly ever used, but put public money into an arena, and people freak out.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Tarsus

How much public money went into the stadium? Same for Regina, I know there was public money, and all for a venue that used only a few times a year.

For Winnipeg, base cost was $190 million with the Blue Bombers picking up $85 million and the city/province picking up the rest of the tab. University of Manitoba contributed the land. There were some overruns and problems that had to be fixed, as well as some improvements that drove the cost higher in the end, maybe to around $210 MM. I'm not sure exactly how the costs were split. But by and large you can say that the Bombers are paying for somewhere in the 40-45% range.

Not sure about Regina but I don't think it was wildly different... the club is paying for a good chunk of the facility. They aren't being gifted to the teams by government. Oilers got a much, much sweeter deal despite being, in all likelihood, a far more profitable entity than the Bombers/Roughriders.

I'm not sure how you get a stadium built without some form of public assistance... has there ever been a pro stadium for anything, even minor league baseball, built in this country in modern times without a subsidy?

[MalcolmTucker]

The Bombers saddled with the stadium loan lost $1,651,513 last year. Without their stadium costs, they would have made $2.848 million. http://d3ham790trbkqy.cloudfront.net...-Lower-Res.pdf

[esquire]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

The Bombers saddled with the stadium loan lost $1,651,513 last year. Without their stadium costs, they would have made $2.848 million. http://d3ham790trbkqy.cloudfront.net...-Lower-Res.pdf

On $27 million revenues and coming off multiple terrible seasons in a row that cut heavily into ticket sales, I'd say that's not all that much of a burden. Revenues jumped dramatically when they moved into the new venue (look at the tables in the report), so they'll be OK if they can keep up their on-field momentum and generate more fan interest.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by Tarsus

I'm not sure where you are getting 'Best in the world' from when it comes to Rogers Place? I've been to the Rogers Place, and while I wouldn't give it a negative review, I wouldn't call it the 'world's best'. It's very typical of today's new arenas...no better no worse. It's no better than some of the other new arenas I've been to (Air Canada Centre, or Centre Bell) I thought the Staples centre was better, I also think the BB&T centre in Sunrise is nicer.

It's all anecdotal so I won't defend it lol, just what I heard.

[Tarsus]

So roughly $100M from public money, which is not too bad. The crazy thing is people here would freak out about that much being chipped in for a new arena. If it was for a stadium maybe not. Nobody seems to be complaining about money toward a stadium.

Originally Posted by esquire

For Winnipeg, base cost was $190 million with the Blue Bombers picking up $85 million and the city/province picking up the rest of the tab. University of Manitoba contributed the land. There were some overruns and problems that had to be fixed, as well as some improvements that drove the cost higher in the end, maybe to around $210 MM. I'm not sure exactly how the costs were split. But by and large you can say that the Bombers are paying for somewhere in the 40-45% range.

Not sure about Regina but I don't think it was wildly different... the club is paying for a good chunk of the facility. They aren't being gifted to the teams by government. Oilers got a much, much sweeter deal despite being, in all likelihood, a far more profitable entity than the Bombers/Roughriders.

I'm not sure how you get a stadium built without some form of public assistance... has there ever been a pro stadium for anything, even minor league baseball, built in this country in modern times without a subsidy?

[Tarsus]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

It's all anecdotal so I won't defend it lol, just what I heard.

Probably hearing it from Edmontonians, or Calgarians who have never been to any other arenas. It's nice, but I came away underwhelmed, probably too much hype around it. I didn't think it was any nicer than Rogers Arena in Vancouver to be honest.

[HomeInMyShoes]

Originally Posted by esquire

For Winnipeg, base cost was $190 million with the Blue Bombers picking up $85 million and the city/province picking up the rest of the tab. University of Manitoba contributed the land. There were some overruns and problems that had to be fixed, as well as some improvements that drove the cost higher in the end, maybe to around $210 MM. I'm not sure exactly how the costs were split. But by and large you can say that the Bombers are paying for somewhere in the 40-45% range.

Not sure about Regina but I don't think it was wildly different... the club is paying for a good chunk of the facility. They aren't being gifted to the teams by government. Oilers got a much, much sweeter deal despite being, in all likelihood, a far more profitable entity than the Bombers/Roughriders.

I'm not sure how you get a stadium built without some form of public assistance... has there ever been a pro stadium for anything, even minor league baseball, built in this country in modern times without a subsidy?

The Riders paid almost nothing for their facility in comparison to Winnipeg. They should have paid more.

Province: 80 million from the province (20million pre year grant over four years)
Provincial Loan: 100 million as a loan from the province (paid back through $12 per ticket user fee)
City: 73 million from the city of Regina, incurred by residents as a 0.45% increase every year on property tax for the next 10 years. For me personally it means about $425 over the coarse of 10 years without ever setting foot in the stadium. It is also doubtful that the city will lower your taxes to remove that 0.45% increase in the tenth year so at that point, you're really paying 4.6% extra on your taxes for no reason anymore. Of course the city likes that future reality.
Riders: 25 million from the Riders, they paid some overages to make their spaces look extra fancy, so they've really kicked in about 40 million

While there's a lot of good that will come out of the stadium in Regina for sure, but the city residents are paying too much of it. Our stadium will be used for some soccer and some other things so there is community value there, but many people will never set foot in the stadium. I might not for many years because I don't have extra money for game tickets or conocert tickets. I'm sure there will be lots of money floating around Regina's economy once the province figures out who is losing a job and who is taking a pay cut or a forced vacation to get to the 3.5% reduction in wages mandated by the current government as well.

If the Riders suck this year and next and the fan base drops even a little we are talking about a $100,000,000 loan that will with good estimates take 15 years to repay and if those estimates are overly optimistic take 25 years to repay. Who will pay for the inevitable upgrade at that point?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Tarsus

So roughly $100M from public money, which is not too bad. The crazy thing is people here would freak out about that much being chipped in for a new arena. If it was for a stadium maybe not. Nobody seems to be complaining about money toward a stadium.

Probably a number of factors made that possible in Winnipeg:
-Bombers are community owned so there was no feeling that the public was lining a billionaire's pockets (although I won't get into the annual public subsidies to TNSE which essentially amount to that)
-Related to the above, the Bombers/CFL are not a huge-dollar operation and this was not a situation where the team could do it on its own
-Sense that the existing stadium's lifespan had been fully exhausted and that a replacement was necessary (i.e., this was wasn't a case of demolishing the 25 year old Georgia Dome to make way for a stadium with more boxes)
-Success of the MTS Centre made citizens more predisposed to considering the benefits of a new facility
-University's presence upped the "public benefit" factor

[esquire]

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

The Riders paid almost nothing for their facility in comparison to Winnipeg. They should have paid more.

Province: 80 million from the province (20million pre year grant over four years)
Provincial Loan: 100 million as a loan from the province (paid back through $12 per ticket user fee)
City: 73 million from the city of Regina, incurred by residents as a 0.45% increase every year on property tax for the next 10 years. For me personally it means about $425 over the coarse of 10 years without ever setting foot in the stadium. It is also doubtful that the city will lower your taxes to remove that 0.45% increase in the tenth year so at that point, you're really paying 4.6% extra on your taxes for no reason anymore. Of course the city likes that future reality.
Riders: 25 million from the Riders, they paid some overages to make their spaces look extra fancy, so they've really kicked in about 40 million

That's actually not far off from the funding formula for IGF. As with the Riders, the vast majority of the Bombers share is in the form of a provincial loan that will be repaid by the Bombers.

Personally I'm fine with a loan, so long as it gets repaid.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by esquire

On $27 million revenues and coming off multiple terrible seasons in a row that cut heavily into ticket sales, I'd say that's not all that much of a burden. Revenues jumped dramatically when they moved into the new venue (look at the tables in the report), so they'll be OK if they can keep up their on-field momentum and generate more fan interest.

Not counting hosting the Grey Cup, they barely broke even in 2015 too.

Originally Posted by esquire

That's actually not far off from the funding formula for IGF. As with the Riders, the vast majority of the Bombers share is in the form of a provincial loan that will be repaid by the Bombers.

Personally I'm fine with a loan, so long as it gets repaid.

They need to turn around, or else in 5 years there will need to be an outside cash injection.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Not counting hosting the Grey Cup, they barely broke even in 2015 too.

They need to turn around, or else in 5 years there will need to be an outside cash injection.

Again, the Bombers were at a serious low ebb when the new venue opened. There was a bit of an uptick in ticket sales in 2013 for the first season, but the team went 3-15 and ticket sales dropped after that. Last season they went 11-7, above .500 for the first time since 2011.

Assuming that this wasn't some kind of aberration and if the team can remain competitive (i.e., not out of the playoffs by Labour Day), then they should be OK.

There are already more non-football events lined up for this year at IGF than there were last year, so things are moving in the right direction. I don't think anyone is worried about a doomsday scenario.

[dg66]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Maybe they should mute you. Your immaturity adds nothing to the debate. If they want to see people get insulted they'd be better off going to Twitter. Those folks are a lot better at it than you and as an added bonus they occasionally have something worthwhile to say.

Agreed 100%

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by Tarsus

Probably hearing it from Edmontonians, or Calgarians who have never been to any other arenas. It's nice, but I came away underwhelmed, probably too much hype around it. I didn't think it was any nicer than Rogers Arena in Vancouver to be honest.

Heard it from a couple people who have been to most arenas in the country and yes, a few Edmontonians who definitely see it through rose coloured glasses. I won't make a judgement until I visit it, but looks pretty damn nice.