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  #1  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2023, 5:01 PM
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Got this update today

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Hi Jeff,

Thanks for reaching out on this project.

This project has experienced a few delays, however we are still in planning and development. If you like, I can add you to our contact list and you will be among the first to know when we have more information to share. Please let me know if you would be interested.

Noah
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  #2  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2023, 5:11 PM
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On another topic, I am getting more and more worried about the City's BRT plan. First of all, this project has to be one of the worst cases of "BRT creep" in all of North America. BRT typically has a few elements:
  • Wider station spacing
  • Dedicated runningways
  • Signal priority
  • Pre-boarding fare payment
  • Increased frequencies (<15 minutes, at a minimum IMO)

Meanwhile, Saskatoon's BRT may have signal priority and the increased frequencies remain to be seen, but it is obvious to me that the buses will be repeatedly snarled in traffic due to a lack of dedicated runningways (3.5kms out of 38kms).

What is especially asinine is that a number of the corridors could quite easily have dedicated bus lanes. Let's be honest, how often does 22nd or 8th need three traffic lanes? With the removal of some curbside parking, 8th could have a dedicated bus lane plus two general travel lanes all the way from Broadway to Boychuk, and the same can be said for 22nd from Idylwyld to Diefenbaker. Attridge/Preston could also have bus lanes added. The setbacks along those roads are very deep and there is plenty of space to add a third bus-only lane. If 24-hour dedicated lanes are too big a political pill to swallow, how about making them time-sensitive? Maybe just weekdays from 7 to 7, or maybe even just weekdays in one direction during peak commute hours? Or, the city could be especially forward-thinking, and use traffic sensors to control electronic signage. When a street gets too congested due to Christmas shopping on the last Saturday before the holiday, or because a big concert just finished downtown, or the Rider won the Grey Cup and everyone is out cruising, the electronic signs could theoretically "activate" the dedicated lane to speed up the buses. And remember, dedicated bus lanes would have knock-on effects for the entirety of the city's bus network; these lanes would not only benefit BRT.

As for fare payment, Saskatoon could use BRT as an opportunity to launch a new contactless fare payment system. I would suggest Saskatoon copies Portland's fare system exactly. Riders can use credit or debit cards if they rarely use the network, or stored value if they regularly ride. Transfers between lines and modes are seamless because the system remembers your payment method. There are daily and monthly fare caps that stop charging you to ride once you pay the equivalent cost of a transit pass. And there is pre-boarding fare payment at LRT stops but without expensive fare gates.

We should call Saskatoon's "BRT" what it actually is: an express bus network. Now, that will still be an upgrade from the current system where a student travelling from Stonebridge to the UofS currently has a 38 minute bus ride with 25 interim stops (BRT will reduce that to 8 stops). But implementing express busses could be done for a whole lot less money, and I am worried that spending in excess of $125 million on "rapid transit" when the result will be anything but will make even more Saskatoon residents turn against transit.

I would love for Saskatoon to dream bigger with its transit. There are many cities around the world with small populations like Saskatoon that have subways (Lausanne, Switzerland is the classic example with a metro population of 330k and a fully-automated metro system with two lines) but even just proper BRT like there is in numerous cities in Mexico, Argentina, Brazil, Australia, and China would do wonders for the city.
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  #3  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2023, 8:26 PM
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I know it will never look like this. I can't wait to do a side by side of the final product. Probably closer to the Baydo Soviet style than this.

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  #4  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2023, 4:28 AM
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Originally Posted by FarmerHaight View Post
On another topic, I am getting more and more worried about the City's BRT plan.
You raise many good points. $125M seems very steep for what they've proposed. Imo, the lack of dedicated bus lanes is especially unfortunate (in part because I'd want them to be precursors to an LRT system lol). It seems like we're more likely to see glorified express buses rather than a true BRT system, as you say. Given how prominently the BRT features in the city's corridor-planning, "BRT-lite" seems like a big misstep. Also, the current plan seems inadequate relative to the densities and uses being approved in the burbs.

On another note, does anyone know what will happen to the downtown transit terminal? It's set to close, right? That would be really unfortunate. Right now, it's a busy strip from dawn to midnight --- without the buses, that area will be so dead.
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Old Posted Mar 30, 2023, 2:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Roquentin View Post
On another note, does anyone know what will happen to the downtown transit terminal? It's set to close, right? That would be really unfortunate. Right now, it's a busy strip from dawn to midnight --- without the buses, that area will be so dead.
If I recall correctly the downtown transit terminal is considered a big plus of the BRT system. Years ago (15+) there were a bunch of businesses fronting on it, but many closed due to how dodgy the area felt, so now I think it's mostly city or government offices on there.

I think the idea was that parking lot that is there becomes a development site and that portion of road becomes a road for cars/bikes, which ideally makes it more vibrant.

Anyone else remember this? or am I making it up? I feel like there was lots of talk about this 15-ish years ago.
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  #6  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2023, 3:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Roquentin View Post
On another note, does anyone know what will happen to the downtown transit terminal? It's set to close, right? That would be really unfortunate. Right now, it's a busy strip from dawn to midnight --- without the buses, that area will be so dead.
The 23rd Street terminal will be replaced by centre median stations on 1st Avenue where the 3 lines intersect in dedicated lanes.
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  #7  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2023, 4:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Roquentin View Post
YIt seems like we're more likely to see glorified express buses rather than a true BRT system, as you say.
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Originally Posted by djforsberg View Post
You would think that improving the transit network and getting more people to use it would lower the amount of single-use vehicular traffic. You just need a city council with the balls to make the move.
It's especially maddening because 8th, 22nd, and College all operate well below their vehicle capacity at least 90% of the time. I would be so easy to throw dedicated lanes on those corridors.

Atlanta's transit authority is currently trying to sway public opinion for some new BRT projects. The public wants rails, while MARTA wants to save money.

Anyways, MARTA has released a number of YouTube videos about how other cities have implemented BRT:
- SanFran
- Houston
- Indy

If you watch those videos you'll see how different S'toon's "BRT" is from true BRT.
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  #8  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2023, 9:53 PM
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Originally Posted by djforsberg View Post
You would think that improving the transit network and getting more people to use it would lower the amount of single-use vehicular traffic. You just need a city council with the balls to make the move. Just like wider roads induce more traffic, the opposite is true. If public transit was quicker and more convenient than single-use vehicle travel, that's when people will start making the jump.
My interpretation of what you've posted is that single-use vehicle travel (which I presume is anything other than public transit) needs to be slower than public transit in order to drive people to use the public transit system. To accomplish that, traffic lanes used by private vehicles will be reduced to allow for dedicated bus lanes, thus making private vehicle transportation less efficient.

My thought - That's not going to happen. Good luck getting re-elected as a city councillor or mayor if you vote to make travel more frustrating for the 90% of people that use private vehicles vs. buses. Sure, public transit may rule in many large cities around the world but Saskatoon isn't one of those places. And I don't believe that it will become one of those places in the foreseeable future.
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  #9  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2023, 11:00 PM
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My interpretation of what you've posted is that single-use vehicle travel (which I presume is anything other than public transit) needs to be slower than public transit in order to drive people to use the public transit system. To accomplish that, traffic lanes used by private vehicles will be reduced to allow for dedicated bus lanes, thus making private vehicle transportation less efficient.

My thought - That's not going to happen. Good luck getting re-elected as a city councillor or mayor if you vote to make travel more frustrating for the 90% of people that use private vehicles vs. buses. Sure, public transit may rule in many large cities around the world but Saskatoon isn't one of those places. And I don't believe that it will become one of those places in the foreseeable future.
Saskatoon's percentage of trips made by transit (4.3%) is obviously lower than the major cities like Vancouver (20.4%), Toronto(24.3%), and Montreal (22.3%), but it's also lower than cities of comparable size with no rapid transit such as Regina (5.1%), London (7.2%), Halifax (11.8%), and Victoria (10.9%). Winnipeg is much larger but its share (13.6%) is significantly higher and it has no rail. In fact, Winnipeg's ridership is better than Edmonton (11.3%) despite the latter's LRT system.

Speed is just one variable. Reliability, comfort, cost, and safety are other ones. There are several other ways to improve Saskatoon's buses such as: running buses on main corridors at higher frequencies (10 minutes and less); providing shelters at all stops to protect from wind, rain, and snow; ensuring stops have adequate street lighting at night; capping daily and monthly fares; and investing in a better transit app are all steps that could increase ridership.

I think it is also important to keep in mind that Saskatoon has a duty to provide good transit not only for the people who might switch from driving to transit but also for those who have no other option. Seniors, immigrants, students, the disabled, and the poor sometimes have no option but to take the bus. Requiring access to a vehicle in order to participate in the labour force, attend school, shop for groceries, or visit friends is not only inequitable but it's also bad for society when those people don't work or can't make a doctor appointment or live isolated lives.

But again, Saskatoon has many streets that are severely overbuilt. I can guarantee that the traffic volumes on 22nd, 8th, and College do not require three lanes for more than 90% of the day. And adding dedicated lanes on those streets would probably increase travel times for private vehicles by 5 minutes or less at peak hours.
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  #10  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2023, 3:51 PM
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Found this new map of the proposed Southeast Concept plan buried in the City's 2022 Planning & Development Year-end Report, in the agenda for the upcoming Planning, Development and Community Services meeting. More suburban whatever. Looks to me like the equivalent of two new Stonebridges.

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  #11  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2023, 9:51 PM
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Looks to me like the equivalent of two new Stonebridges.
I don't really get why cities wait until they face a housing crisis and gridlocked roads before deciding to build more densely. Yes, Saskatoon's land is too cheap to justify the sorts of highrises that are going up in Vancouver or Toronto, but the city should be building new mixed-use, medium-density neighbourhoods instead of these unsustainable (from a financial perspective) single-family "suburbs".

I think it is absurd that for this new conecpt, just like with Stonebridge or Evergreen or Brighton, some people will need to drive two or three kilometers to access that tiny sliver of commercial built next to the highway. McOrmond Drive, Brighton Gate, and Brighton Boulevard should have lined with two-story commercial buildings akin to Broadway or 20th, but instead Brighton and every other new neighbourhood (including the new one pictured here) is allergic to any sort of mixed-use.
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  #12  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2023, 10:17 PM
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[QUOTE Speed is just one variable. Reliability, comfort, cost, and safety are other ones. There are several other ways to improve Saskatoon's buses such as: running buses on main corridors at higher frequencies (10 minutes and less); providing shelters at all stops to protect from wind, rain, and snow; ensuring stops have adequate street lighting at night; capping daily and monthly fares; and investing in a better transit app are all steps that could increase ridership..[/QUOTE]

I especially agree with the suggestion of shelters at all stops. Let us acknowledge and embrace that we are winter city, and as such need to provide more comfortable shelter from the cold for winter public transit. With the advancement of solar technology, there must be existing shelters that integrate solar panels into the bus shelter. Even if these type of shelters were every 2nd stop (with a windbreak shelter in between) this would go a long way to improving the experience. We have friends that are new Canadians, recently had a baby and cannot afford a car. Their struggles to get around our city for appointments and shopping (especially for the baby) has broken our hearts.
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  #13  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2023, 10:21 PM
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I can agree with you that the final product won't be identical, but I would never lump it in with Baydo. The main distinction being that Meridian and their architect have established reputations for building quality and following through on their vision.

An architect has never touched a Baydo building, nor do they have any respect for architectural quality. Just engineers playing in SketchUp.
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  #14  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2023, 11:09 PM
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Some exciting news for Saskatoon: WCBL baseball is returning to Cairns Field in 2024. The team will be owned by the group that owns the Blades and Rush.

https://thestarphoenix.com/sports/ba...atoon-for-2024

Notably, ownership will apparently pay for several improvements to Cairns Field: a new infield, dugout fixes, and a deck down the third-base line. Any improvements to that place were needed 40 years ago, so it's great that they're looking to put some money into it. Maybe it could lead to a new ballpark a'la Spruce Grove or the proposed ballpark in Regina.
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  #15  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2023, 11:25 PM
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Oh look, a new freeway.

It is absurd, isn't it? While we cheer on things like the Caswell bus barns rehab, the city is putting blobs of colour on a map and planning to metastasize. The city grows by, what, ~6000 people per year? How much of that growth takes place centrally? Or, not even centrally --- how much of that growth occurs inside the perimeter of Circle Drive? Almost none of it, relatively speaking?

Whenever the issue of suburban growth is raised, people talk about the desires of consumers who prefer to own a house (and to have that house be reasonably affordable, have access to local services, etc.). Those preferences are sacrosanct here at a local, political level --- those preferences are massively supported and subsidized. For the sake of argument (or to avoid an argument, maybe), let's say that those preferences are completely, 100% fine. However, on a personal level, in the next few months, I'm going to be moving from downtown to 639 Main (woo!). My preference is to live/work/shop etc. centrally. Compared to suburban living, how easy/affordable/convenient etc. is it to do that here? Compared to the suburbs, how well is the core (or anything inside Circle Drive) supported and subsidized?

What is being done at governmental levels to encourage or support the choices people make when they decide where to live? Building a new freeway would be an answer to that question. Allowing a cluster of office buildings to be built in Stonebridge is an answer to that question. Giving heritage designation to a gravel parking lot downtown answers that question. And so on and so on. Meanwhile, people complain about replacing the downtown library or building the arena downtown --- and career-minded political opportunists listen to them.

The status quo here leaves a lot to be desired. What will the city look like when it finally hits that half-a-million mark that planners envision? Inside Circle Drive, will it even be very different than it is right now?
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  #16  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2023, 1:10 PM
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I think good and bad points for Saskatoon developments- trying to build the CBD while allowing the waste of tax money expanding the burbs is tricky.

Last edited by Saskabusher; Apr 1, 2023 at 6:04 PM.
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  #17  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2023, 8:20 PM
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Highlighting a few projects, and proposed projects.. in and around downtown..
all within Circle Dr. There are some fantastic infill projects from smaller builders.
The Caswell Bus Barns are making plans.... that look fantastic!
I too.... am impatient, and wanting projects to happen faster.
It feels like not much is happening... but there's a lot happening behind the scenes, a lot of planning going on (and a lot of hurdles to overcome... )

https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=55fdd...Zm9saW8u&ntb=1

https://www.ckom.com/2022/05/11/plan...-in-saskatoon/

https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=1ab6e...lwbGVzLw&ntb=1

https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=e1a07...1cmNoZXM&ntb=1

https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=a4eb5...MTk0NzY5&ntb=1

https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=980e2...91c2luZw&ntb=1

https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=d8f6f...NoZXdhbg&ntb=1

https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=52a87...ODYwODg3&ntb=1

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saska...lace-1.5996541

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saska...0strong%202018
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  #18  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2023, 7:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Roquentin View Post
Whenever the issue of suburban growth is raised, people talk about the desires of consumers who prefer to own a house (and to have that house be reasonably affordable, have access to local services, etc.). Those preferences are sacrosanct here at a local, political level --- those preferences are massively supported and subsidized.
I hear this argument all the time: "People who want to live in apartments move to Vancouver or Toronto; people who want to own a SFH live in Saskatoon". Never mind the fact that part of the reason my wife and I left Saskatoon is because of the poor-quality urban living. We lived in one of the most walkable parts of the city (Nutana) and there was still only one grocery store a 15-minute walk away and even that store has closed!

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It feels like not much is happening... but there's a lot happening behind the scenes, a lot of planning going on (and a lot of hurdles to overcome... )
The problem is that for every major project or 15 infills within Circle Drive, another thousand-home development on the periphery of the city is given the green light!

These far-flung developments are essentially a pyramid scheme: the property taxes they generate do not cover the maintenance and eventual replacement of infrastructure like roads and sewers, so a city either has to cover that shortfall with the taxes generated from the CBD and dense, mixed-use developments or it has to approve more and more new developments to keep the whole racket going.

Here's a fun fact: per the 2021 census Saskatoon's CMA has a land area of 5,900 square kilometres and a population of 317k, while Vancouver's CMA has a land area of 2,900 square kilometres and a population of 2.6 million. So if you ever wonder why one city has Skytrain and one of the better bus networks in North America while the other has an abundance of freeways and poor bus service now you know.
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Old Posted Apr 2, 2023, 10:07 PM
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I hear this argument all the time: "People who want to live in apartments move to Vancouver or Toronto; people who want to own a SFH live in Saskatoon". Never mind the fact that part of the reason my wife and I left Saskatoon is because of the poor-quality urban living. We lived in one of the most walkable parts of the city (Nutana) and there was still only one grocery store a 15-minute walk away and even that store has closed!



The problem is that for every major project or 15 infills within Circle Drive, another thousand-home development on the periphery of the city is given the green light!

These far-flung developments are essentially a pyramid scheme: the property taxes they generate do not cover the maintenance and eventual replacement of infrastructure like roads and sewers, so a city either has to cover that shortfall with the taxes generated from the CBD and dense, mixed-use developments or it has to approve more and more new developments to keep the whole racket going.

Here's a fun fact: per the 2021 census Saskatoon's CMA has a land area of 5,900 square kilometres and a population of 317k, while Vancouver's CMA has a land area of 2,900 square kilometres and a population of 2.6 million. So if you ever wonder why one city has Skytrain and one of the better bus networks in North America while the other has an abundance of freeways and poor bus service now you know.
Fun fact one city is 320K and the other is 2.5miliion.

Fun fact the city of 320K is actually only 280k in the city proper. Don't spend dime one on roads or buses outside it's borders.

How about you make a proper comparison
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Old Posted Apr 3, 2023, 12:52 AM
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They are well thought out, amongst the city's more dense areas and they are diverse with it's housing options. It's just too bad they aren't located maybe we're North Park/ Richmond Heights or Holliston are.
Yes, those neighbourhoods have a good variety of housing types. But I still wish there was more mixed use development and that the neighbourhoods were built on more of a grid. I like the shops and services in Evergreen Square, but it would be nice if there were a couple shops spread through the neighbourhood maybe at the intersection of Evergreen and Zary or the northeast Evergreen traffic circle. And I wish there were more pedestrian connections between the crescents along McOrmond and Fedoruk and those arterials to make it easier to walk to a bus stop.

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Fun fact one city is 320K and the other is 2.5miliion.

Fun fact the city of 320K is actually only 280k in the city proper. Don't spend dime one on roads or buses outside it's borders.

How about you make a proper comparison
I don't know what your point is. Vancouver is only 675k in the city proper. And plenty of Vancouver's CMA is the Strait of Georgia, or the agricultural land reserve, or the North Shore Mountains, which are all places where "Vancouver" doesn't spend a dime on buses or roads either. Stats Canada draws CMAs in a similar fashion across the country, so they are pretty comparable in terms of how much "city" and how much "country" is captured inside the borders. If we want to compare the cities proper Saskatoon has 2x the land but only 40% of the population.

But my point was not that Saskatoon should have Skytrain or regional rail or an MLS team or any of the things Vancouver has, but rather that Saskatoon spends more per capita on its infrastructure (as djforsberg already mentioned) than if it developed more densely. Don't even bother comparing Saskatoon to another city; compare Saskatoon's older neighbourhoods to its newer ones. For example, how many more people per day use Main Street (because the lots are smaller, because Nutana and Varsity View are built on a grid so the streets are actually useful to residents city-wide, because pedestrians and cyclists use those roads, etc.) than use Hunter Road or Vic Boulevard in Stonebridge?
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