Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[SkydivePilot]

Originally Posted by osmo

Good to hear that on THF. Office space is a good turn over of use as they never will really be around when a game is on so things like parking and such can be shared between uses.



Revenue days I mean. HS football, Rams, and whatever else do not count.

There may be a few concerts but no more than 20 revenue generating days.

Yes, I'd go with you on that. It's too bad that there isn't a dome on her right from the get go ---- stupid, . . especially with our climate here. If they eventually stick a retractable roof on her, they'll have to shut her down for a whole season.

The condition of the east side of the old Mosaic is disgusting though.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by SkydivePilot

Yes, I'd go with you on that. It's too bad that there isn't a dome on her right from the get go ---- stupid, . . especially with our climate here. If they eventually stick a retractable roof on her, they'll have to shut her down for a whole season.

The condition of the east side of the old Mosaic is disgusting though.

If you know anywhere that an extra $100 million + could have been found, by all means....

I'm more disappointed in the size. I know the current trend is to build small and charge fans out the ass for the tickets available, but I'd have still liked to see a 35k stadium expandable to a minimum of 45k. Just to at least make it a slight upgrade in seating capacity from the current stadium.

I have a feeling they may start coming up against the line where people will start to push back against the increases in prices soon though. I've had tickets for 20+ years now, and unfortunately, I'm starting to reconsider it a bit.

[blueandgoldguy]

I thought new Mosaic will seat 35,000 if you include the 1500 or so spots in the one endzone - standing room area with ledges for drinks. There appears to be 7 - 10 rows in the renderings.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

I thought new Mosaic will seat 35,000 if you include the 1500 or so spots in the one endzone - standing room area with ledges for drinks. There appears to be 7 - 10 rows in the renderings.

That's what I thought too, but I've also read sentences like "total capacity of 33k including suites", so I'm thinking that maybe they're already included.

It does Max out at 40k though I think. Unless they alter they can alter the South endzone.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by Nathan

If you know anywhere that an extra $100 million + could have been found, by all means....

I'm more disappointed in the size. I know the current trend is to build small and charge fans out the ass for the tickets available, but I'd have still liked to see a 35k stadium expandable to a minimum of 45k. Just to at least make it a slight upgrade in seating capacity from the current stadium.

I have a feeling they may start coming up against the line where people will start to push back against the increases in prices soon though. I've had tickets for 20+ years now, and unfortunately, I'm starting to reconsider it a bit.

Hate to say it man but 35K is too big for the riders. When they had the grey cup configuration up they weren't selling out Mosiac at all. And before all you riders fans go insane on me Let me make it clear I'm not questioning the pride in sask. I understand it very well. I'm just saying if the riders are only capable of bringing in 37k (2013 attendance) fans when 45,000 seats are available to build a 35,000 seat building makes no sense. your demand dries up at that point.

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by Nathan

That's what I thought too, but I've also read sentences like "total capacity of 33k including suites", so I'm thinking that maybe they're already included.

It does Max out at 40k though I think. Unless they alter they can alter the South endzone.

ya, the possibilities of walk-ups for extra revenue for games drops if spectators don't bother checking last minute on-line and assume games are sellouts all the time. Unless they price tickets according to popularity of games with visiting teams (Mosaic fans do love to see Riders beat the bombers on a regular basis on labour day weekend) then some games will sell out all the time and other games may get varying attendances, so Mosaic could stand to be larger. Building a stadium large enough for situations like when the Riders are hosting Grey Cup and are also contenders for winning the Cup are a bonanza. In comparison Winnipeg's stadium is probably just about right size, They are hosting the Cup this year but no need to add extra seating because the bombers wouldn't have had a chance winning at home like the Riders did in 2013 anyway..

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Hate to say it man but 35K is too big for the riders. When they had the grey cup configuration up they weren't selling out Mosiac at all. And before all you riders fans go insane on me Let me make it clear I'm not questioning the pride in sask. I understand it very well. I'm just saying if the riders are only capable of bringing in 37k (2013 attendance) fans when 45,000 seats are available to build a 35,000 seat building makes no sense. your demand dries up at that point.

I agree. I think the Riders built the largest possible size of stadium that they could reasonably expect to see filled on a regular basis. Any bigger and they would have had a BC Place scenario where thousands of seats would go unused almost all the time.

No point in taking on debt to add seats that nobody will pay to sit in and will only detract from the atmosphere.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Hate to say it man but 35K is too big for the riders. When they had the grey cup configuration up they weren't selling out Mosiac at all. And before all you riders fans go insane on me Let me make it clear I'm not questioning the pride in sask. I understand it very well. I'm just saying if the riders are only capable of bringing in 37k (2013 attendance) fans when 45,000 seats are available to build a 35,000 seat building makes no sense. your demand dries up at that point.

The capacity of the new stadium is spot on perfect.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by Nathan

That's what I thought too, but I've also read sentences like "total capacity of 33k including suites", so I'm thinking that maybe they're already included.

It does Max out at 40k though I think. Unless they alter they can alter the South endzone.

Grey Cup capacity at the new stadium will be 42K

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Hate to say it man but 35K is too big for the riders. When they had the grey cup configuration up they weren't selling out Mosiac at all. And before all you riders fans go insane on me Let me make it clear I'm not questioning the pride in sask. I understand it very well. I'm just saying if the riders are only capable of bringing in 37k (2013 attendance) fans when 45,000 seats are available to build a 35,000 seat building makes no sense. your demand dries up at that point.

The stadium wasn't 45k for the whole year. The Labour Day game was the first game the full expanded capacity was available. So it was actually running at close to capacity for most games until the end of the season.

In any case, all games were above 35k except for at the end of the season, when it became too cold for some families to bring their children to the game (that's a fairly large demographic at Rider games). A more enclosed stadium like is being built, helps to mitigate this as a lot of it is the wind.

It is also the endzone seats that have a harder time selling (same everywhere)... if the stadium were designed to have the 2k additional seats on the sidelines, they would sell much more easily than having them all in the endzone. That was in fact the line we were told all along... way more sideline seating, etc... but it's actually quite similar to the current stadium in the end.


And to SaskScraper's point... a few years ago, the Riders were actually having to put out ads and make sure local media let people know when a game still had tickets for sale. Everyone was working under the assumption that the games were sold out and didn't even bother looking into it. Kind of an issue you get into when you have a supply/demand mismatch.


And even with how crappy the Riders are this year... we still have the second highest average attendance 300 below Edmonton. Now, a long term basement situation could definitely pull it down... but it certainly wouldn't be a BC or Toronto situation with a 50% capacity stadium... 2-3k extra seats isn't a "demand drying up" situation, at least not here.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by Migs

Grey Cup capacity at the new stadium will be 42K

Still below where it should be... Because I know they're going to try and Jack up prices to make sure they pull in the same revenue as a larger capacity stadium.

And as they do that, they will find the demand will drop further and further... Not create more.

It works for luxury brands, bit the CFL has always been marketed on accessibility, and a league for the people.

[AuxTown]

First off, the new Regina stadium is too big. There was a ton of CFL hype across Canada a few years ago but that seems to be dying down a bit recently. The novelty of a new building will have them sell out at least the first 3-4 years, but long term I see 3-5k empty seats, especially if they can't field a winning team. Anyway, it's gonna be awesome to see and the most loyal sports fans in Canada definitely deserve this project.

Now for Ottawa, a small bit of info from the Ottawa Sun regarding our potential new downtown stadium:

from http://www.ottawasun.com/2015/10/11/senators-owner-eugene-melnyk-has-big-plans-for-lebreton-flats

Senators owner Eugene Melnyk has big plans for Lebreton Flats

The Senators are excited about their future.

Speaking in a exclusive one-on-one interview Sunday, Senators owner Eugene Melnyk noted club officials are working hard on what they think will be a spectacular bid to build a new rink downtown at Lebreton Flats.

Though details of the bid to the National Capital Commission on Dec. 15 have to remain private, Melnyk noted the club’s submission will be extensive and exciting.

“I’ve indicated what I want to see in Lebreton and it’s going to be so spectacular. If we get the bid it’s going to change Ottawa forever,” he said. “There’s going to be landmarks in there that if you come to Canada, you have to get to Ottawa and if you get to Ottawa you have to get to Lebreton.

“It’s going to be one of those bucket list things where you have to go to Lebreton and spend a day there. It’s going to be so spectacular but it’s not a given. We’ve got to win the bid.”

[Oilkountry]

Right now to say you have 2nd highest attendance in the league isn't something to be proud of. Droves of empty seats all over the western conference, BC is drawing under 20k Winnipeg is drawing 25k even Calgary and Edmonton are feeling the sting with great records. Couldn't have been 20k fans in commonwealth this weekends game vs BC. Not one CFL team in this league needs more than 33k seats and the riders aren't the exception to that. The league should be panicking to find out what the hell went wrong from last season to today. As for mosiac they built it to be expandable if the demand is there. They will add some permanent seating, until then 30k seats will suffice just fine as it always has in Regina.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey

First off, the new Regina stadium is too big. There was a ton of CFL hype across Canada a few years ago but that seems to be dying down a bit recently. The novelty of a new building will have them sell out at least the first 3-4 years, but long term I see 3-5k empty seats, especially if they can't field a winning team. Anyway, it's gonna be awesome to see and the most loyal sports fans in Canada definitely deserve this project.

Now for Ottawa, a small bit of info from the Ottawa Sun regarding our potential new downtown stadium:

from http://www.ottawasun.com/2015/10/11/senators-owner-eugene-melnyk-has-big-plans-for-lebreton-flats

Bla Bla Bla. Lets get to the point here...How much public is being asked for? 500M? 600M? more? You're gonna have no federal support (the backlash in Alberta would be fierce) I cant see the Ontario government adding to their debt load. At least Calgary has a leg to stand on with an arena and stadium that is nearing or decades past the shelf life. Theirs no way this is gonna happen, The Sens hardly have any cash as it is to run the current 20 year old venue. How much do you think they are bringing to the table for a brand new one HA!? Can't wait to hear the word "LEVI" such a joke

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey

First off, the new Regina stadium is too big. There was a ton of CFL hype across Canada a few years ago but that seems to be dying down a bit recently. The novelty of a new building will have them sell out at least the first 3-4 years, but long term I see 3-5k empty seats, especially if they can't field a winning team. Anyway, it's gonna be awesome to see and the most loyal sports fans in Canada definitely deserve this project.

Now for Ottawa, a small bit of info from the Ottawa Sun regarding our potential new downtown stadium:

from http://www.ottawasun.com/2015/10/11/senators-owner-eugene-melnyk-has-big-plans-for-lebreton-flats

Too big for the East? Definitely! Too big for the West (or more specifically, the prairies)? No.

The last 10 years or so have seen the Riders average basically either stadium capacity or close to. A long term losing-streak could hurt things, like they do most teams, but considering the Riders season ticket base is right around 28k, hard to see them average 5k under capacity... That would mean no walk-ups whatsoever... or a cratering of season ticket purchasing.

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Right now to say you have 2nd highest attendance in the league isn't something to be proud of. Droves of empty seats all over the western conference, BC is drawing under 20k Winnipeg is drawing 25k even Calgary and Edmonton are feeling the sting with great records. Couldn't have been 20k fans in commonwealth this weekends game vs BC. Not one CFL team in this league needs more than 33k seats and the riders aren't the exception to that. The league should be panicking to find out what the hell went wrong from last season to today. As for mosiac they built it to be expandable if the demand is there. They will add some permanent seating, until then 30k seats will suffice just fine as it always has in Regina.

Considering the CFL is actually one of the top 10 average attendance leagues in the world... yeah, it's not a bad thing to be. Or were you only looking at the USA for comparison? The most sports-crazed market in the world; where cities can be black-mailed into routinely putting in hundreds of millions of dollars into stadiums every 20-25 years, and where the media/corporate American actually pumps the leagues up like none-other? Basically the issue that holds back any Canadian-only league. There's no way it can compete head to head with a league from by far the richest county in the world, that has 10x the population of Canada, and is probably twice as sports-minded overall.

What's different from last season? They went flag happy for the first half of the season and it turned off a lot of people. Also... the Riders doing crappily does have a bit of a carry-over effect. The overall jump in the CFL lines up quite well with when the Riders started to really explode. Not saying it's everything, or even most of it, but a very enthusiastic fan-base can have a bit of a contagious effect on others.

We tend to be very into the whole league when the Riders are doing well, and sort of back off a little and narrow down to the Riders when they are doing poorly. Not as fun to compare your team to others when you know yours is worse in almost every metric. This over-exuberance (and admittedly some cockiness from some Rider fans), definitely turned fans of other teams against the Riders/Rider fans, but it also increased the intensity of rivalries, which is certainly a net positive effect for overall interest.


In any case, thank God it's not 30k; that sufficed in the past, but not now; it would be undercutting the demand ridiculously. The last time the Riders really averaged below 30k was 2006, when it was 25k. Since then they have either averaged just below capacity (e.g. 28k in 2007, when stadium capacity was 28.8k), in and around 30-33k, or bumping to 37k during the Grey Cup year when the stadium was expanded partially from the start, and then fully from Labour Day onward.

I'm not saying build a massive 50k stadium in Regina, that would definitely be ridiculous, but not building it slightly above the current capacity to make room for some very easy growth, or to allow for some lower priced tickets to more easily grow the fanbase into the future is, IMHO, a mistake. That's partially what enabled the Riders to succeed so well in recent years. The accessibility of the Riders is what draws people in; having a hot ticket in a stadium that's on the smaller side of things (i.e. the Eastern Division's strategy) actually is a negative here.


And maybe that's part of the problem with the CFL, people get so pessimistic that they almost cut out the growth from under it. "30k is more than enough"... "they'll have 3-5k empty seats in no time"... "who cares if they are right around the top of the CFL in average attendance, it's just the CFL; nothing to be proud of there"... Notice a pattern?

[osmo]

Capacity won't be a issue for the Riders and Mosaic II. IMO the issues might come from sticker shock for the price increases on seats and everything else.

[king10]

33K for Mosaic 2.0 is more than enough.

This is a business. If you want the league to survive you need to hit the sweet spot with supply and demand. Increase luxury areas which generate the most revenue to keep the league profitable.

Look at Winnipeg. They built a larger stadium and there are always empty seats. Hamilton and Ottawa build smaller stadiums and are normally filled to capacity(save for the last few Ottawa games) keeping demand high. BC Place. Commonwealth stadium have decreased seating capacity by a couple thousand and their stadiums are still far too big. Larger stadiums don't mean more people automatically show up.

Again 33K is more than enough. The stadium is designed with expansion in mind if they ever need more seats. But that is highly unlikely as attendance is down all over the league as people choose to stay home and watch games on their big screen.

[esquire]

^ IGF is not too big, it's just that its opening coincided with a period of prolonged bungling, mismanagement and lousy on-field performance. If the Bombers were even so much as a .500 team since their last GC appearance in 2011, IGF probably would have been sold out more often than not over the past few seasons.

I'd say that 33,500 permanent seats for IGF was spot-on.

[SkydivePilot]

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey

First off, the new Regina stadium is too big. There was a ton of CFL hype across Canada a few years ago but that seems to be dying down a bit recently. The novelty of a new building will have them sell out at least the first 3-4 years, but long term I see 3-5k empty seats, especially if they can't field a winning team. Anyway, it's gonna be awesome to see and the most loyal sports fans in Canada definitely deserve this project.

Now for Ottawa, a small bit of info from the Ottawa Sun regarding our potential new downtown stadium:

from http://www.ottawasun.com/2015/10/11/senators-owner-eugene-melnyk-has-big-plans-for-lebreton-flats

"Too big"???

Are you off your rocker?

[SkydivePilot]

Originally Posted by Nathan

If you know anywhere that an extra $100 million + could have been found, by all means....

I'm more disappointed in the size. I know the current trend is to build small and charge fans out the ass for the tickets available, but I'd have still liked to see a 35k stadium expandable to a minimum of 45k. Just to at least make it a slight upgrade in seating capacity from the current stadium.

I have a feeling they may start coming up against the line where people will start to push back against the increases in prices soon though. I've had tickets for 20+ years now, and unfortunately, I'm starting to reconsider it a bit.

Yeah, I know, but it was stupid to not put a retractable roof on her right from the get go.